They are, fundamentally, a taxation agency.

I know staggering sums of alcohol taxes are collected, but does that actually cover their budget?

If they do not produce revenue, it might be an excellent argument for having them disbanded.

Do we really want law enforcement agencies to pay their own way by their enforcement efforts? E.g., the Podunk Police Department must generate enough revenue by writing tickets on the travelers through their one-stoplight town (like mine) to pay for the department?

There is a lot to criticize about the ATF’s policies and actions of some of its employees, but the fundamental reason they do things that gun owners don’t like is because of the laws on the books. If the ATF were disbanded the laws would still exist and would simply become the responsibility of another Federal agency, i.e., the FBI, to enforce. Would that be an improvement? If so, how?

That’s my point. They are not a law enforcement agency.

They’re just another tax agency/regulator.

They are the same as the FDA/USDA/OSHA etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
That’s my point. They are not a law enforcement agency.

They’re just another tax agency/regulator.

They are the same as the FDA/USDA/OSHA etc.

Uhhh, you might want to rethink that. Perhaps you should ask the Widow of Bryan Malinowski...The ATF showed up at their home for a pre-dawn raid and imposed the Death Penalty!

https://arktimes.com/arkansas-...g-in-a-pre-dawn-raid

Widow of Bryan Malinowski sues ATF over husband’s fatal shooting in a pre-dawn raid

The widow of a Little Rock man who was shot after he opened fire on federal agents during a pre-dawn raid last March is suing the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Maer Malinowski, the widow of Little Rock airport executive and hobbyist gun salesman Bryan Malinowski, is bringing a wrongful death suit in which she contends federal agents serving a search warrant at her West Little Rock home on the morning of March 19, 2024, were reckless and needlessly aggressive. Along with the ATF itself and the U.S. government, the lawsuit names 10 federal agents and task force officers as individual defendants.

In a complaint filed Thursday in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas in Little Rock, plaintiff Maer Malinowski takes issue with agents’ failure to knock, announce their presence and then wait before entering. Breaking the door down before daylight resulted in “an entirely predictable, needless and tragic outcome,” the complaint states.

Bryan Malinowski, who was 53 at the time of his death, was not aware he was the subject of a federal investigation into illegal firearms sales, the complaint says, and thought the people breaking into his home shortly after 6 a.m. that day were intruders...

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
That’s my point. They are not a law enforcement agency.

They’re just another tax agency/regulator.

They are the same as the FDA/USDA/OSHA etc.

The ATF is a federal law enforcement agency. I would classify them as both a law enforcement and regulatory agency. They do produce incoming revenue, but in no way enough to cover the funds of the agency.

I would sort of compare it to when I worked for the Office of Inspector General (OIG) for the Texas Health and Human Services Commission (HHSC). HHSC is a massive agency that covers a lot but a part of what they do is provide public assistance in giving food stamps (SNAP), Medicaid, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), and Women Infant Children (WIC) to low income families who qualified. Obviously there is a TON of fraud around these programs. HHSC OIG regulated the programs by doing inspections for compliance by doctors and vendors and enforcement of fraud by prosecuting recipients of the benefits. We recovered millions and millions of dollars every year, yet it was not enough to fund the agency. It just recovered Texas tax payer dollars and prosecuted people who abused the programs.

To the OP I can’t answer.
As to the Malinowski incident, I’m curious why the ATF didn’t just stop the man on his way to work. I’m sure there could any number of reasons, but I’d sure like to know.

quote:

Originally posted by 400m:
To the OP I can’t answer.
As to the Malinowski incident, I’m curious why the ATF didn’t just stop the man on his way to work. I’m sure there could any number of reasons, but I’d sure like to know.

Last arrest/search warrant I did with the FBI, they were not allowed to execute the warrant until there is proof the homeowner was awake such as lights being turned on. I am sure there are exceptions.

Our case was funny and I wish I had it on video. This was back in the 90’s. We got to the house at 4am and waited to see proof they were awake. At about 7am, the lights turned on and one of the main very overweight male suspects exited the house wearing only a speedo to go retrieve the newspaper from the front lawn. He was rushed by FBI agents and local LE at gunpoint to be cuffed in his front yard in only a speedo as neighbors passed by on their way to work looking. Man, I wish I had it on video!

re the ATF, they were broken up a good many years ago, some sent to DOJ, some still ATF, some ?? and example is the IOI's are DOJ,

semantics, sure,


meanwhile excise taxes

https://taxpolicycenter.org/br...-money-do-they-raise

ATF, IRS and the like are revenue enforcement agencies. They don't generate revenue themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by 400m:
To the OP I can’t answer.
As to the Malinowski incident, I’m curious why the ATF didn’t just stop the man on his way to work. I’m sure there could any number of reasons, but I’d sure like to know.

These are often tough decisions. I personally do not like trying to intercept people in public. The threat to the public is higher and the ability for the people serving the warrant to control the outcome is often less. The "why didn't they do _______?" argument is one that assumes that the person would have complied in that setting.

My point is, the ATF shouldn’t be a law enforcement agency.

They’re supposed to collect taxes and review paperwork on regulated industries.

Same as the EPA/FDA/USDA/etc.

Nothing in their description, indicates “law enforcement.”

If the attitude gets corrected, gun dealers, class 3 collectors etc go from “potential villain” to “customer”.

Making legitimate people deal with an agency which considers them villains, is idiotic.

quote:

My point is, the ATF shouldn’t be a law enforcement agency.

Yeah, put them back in the Treasury Department where they belong.