quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
It’ll never happen, but I’ll throw out a totally different approach to the problem. First offense with drugs, five years hard labor. Second offense, fifteen. Third offense, life in hard labor. If we had the fortitude to stick to it, the demand for drugs *would* dry up, one way or another. Once the demand dries up, no more supply.

It'll never happen because it's not a solution. I'd go so far as to say it's idiotic. People have been altering their consciousness in various ways longer than we've been recording history, and newsflash: they do it in prison, too, many thousands of years later. But yes, we could imprison/enslave a huge chunk of our country's population in order to spite Mexico. I don't think Mexico or the cartels that run it would give much of a damn, and the costs to us taxpayers would be astronomical. It's about as opposite as it gets from the "do whatever you like with your body as long as I don't have to pay tax money to fix you from it" that gets thrown around here so often.

Maybe legalization would work. Not sure that it would. Singapore’s model has been shown to work. (Death penalty for drug dealing, etc.)

I’m way past the point where I think there’s any merit in talking about legalization or decriminalization or drugs in terms of what to do about Mexico. That’s a game of tetherball that nobody wins. There’s always going to be intoxicants and there’s always going to be people who want them to some degree. Thee’s always going to be more money on this side of the border and the hungriest, most desperate people with no limits on the other side of it are going to seek ways to get it. Focusing on what we’re contributing to the problem up here is myopic.

It’s real simple: build the wall and secure the border. An honest effort to do so hasn’t yet been made. If the shit can’t make it across the border, that whole conversation ceases to have meaning. But it always comes back to the drug trafficking with illegal labor as the fallback complaint. What about human trafficking? Women and children of all ages are smuggled into and out of our country regularly as part of the sex slave trade and nobody talks about it. Let’s stop pretending that this is simply a supply and demand drug thing. There’s a whole lot more to it than that, but it all comes back to a porous border.

Would be better to annex Mexico and get it over with than lock up a growing portion of our population while we continually send our best to die halfway around the world in regional conflicts we have little or nothing to do with, compared to what we put up with from our southern neighbors.

An El Dorado County sheriff was shot and killed on October 23rd by an local nut job who had leased his land to a Mexican cartel to grow marijuana on his land. Three Mexican nationals were arrested as well, one of them the trigger guy. So the local nut job calls 911 to report someone is stealing from his illegal pot grow. Sheriff shows up, the Mexicans think it's the robbers back for more and open fire on the sheriff and killed him.

CA is legal and a growing business here in Utopia West. Doesn't seem to have persuaded the cartels from pursuing other interests. They'll just undercut the legal weed. Hmm.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
CA is legal and a growing business here in Utopia West. Doesn't seem to have persuaded the cartels from pursuing other interests. They'll just undercut the legal weed. Hmm.

Yes, but like everything else, California manages to fuck it up with regulations and costs passed on to businesses. Legalizing hasn't done anything to reduce the demand for, "Illegal" weed.

From the article,

"His dispensary pays a cumulative state and local tax rate of 32.25 percent. Unlicensed shops pay no tax."

And the politicians wonder why legalization hasn't changed anything...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/0...ia-legalization.html

‘Getting Worse, Not Better’: Illegal Pot Market Booming in California Despite Legalization

New York Times
By Thomas Fuller
April 27, 2019

COSTA MESA, Calif. — In the forests of Northern California, raids by law enforcement officials continue to uncover illicit marijuana farms. In Southern California, hundreds of illegal delivery services and pot dispensaries, some of them registered as churches, serve a steady stream of customers. And in Mendocino County, north of San Francisco, the sheriff’s office recently raided an illegal cannabis production facility that was processing 500 pounds of marijuana a day.

It’s been a little more than a year since California legalized marijuana — the largest such experiment in the United States — but law enforcement officials say the unlicensed, illegal market is still thriving and in some areas has even expanded.

“There’s a lot of money to be made in the black market,” said Thomas D. Allman, the sheriff of Mendocino County, whose deputies seized cannabis oil worth more than $5 million in early April.

Legalization, Sheriff Allman said, “certainly didn’t put cops out of work.”

California’s governor, Gavin Newsom, has declared that illegal grows in Northern California “are getting worse, not better” and two months ago redeployed a contingent of National Guard troops stationed on the border with Mexico to go after illegal cannabis farms instead.

Stepped-up enforcement comes with a certain measure of irony — legalization was meant to open a new chapter for the state, free from the legacy of heavy policing and incarceration for minor infractions. Instead, there are new calls for a crackdown on illegal selling.

Conscious of the consequences that the war on drugs had on black and Latino communities, cities like Los Angeles today say they are wary of using criminal enforcement measures to police the illegal market and are unsure how to navigate this uncharted era.

The struggles of the licensed pot market in California are distinct from the experience of other states that have legalized cannabis in recent years. Sales in Colorado, Oregon and Washington grew well above 50 percent for each of the first three years of legalization, although Oregon now also has a large glut of pot.

But no other state has an illegal market on the scale of California’s, and those illicit sales are cannibalizing the revenue of licensed businesses and in some cases, experts say, forcing them out of business.

Entrepreneurs in the industry, which spent decades evading the law, are now turning to the law to demand the prosecution of unlicensed pot businesses.

“We are the taxpayers — no one else should be operating,” said Robert Taft Jr., whose licensed cannabis business in Orange County, south of Los Angeles, has seen sales drop in recent months.

It’s been a little more than a year since California legalized marijuana, but the illegal market is still thriving and in some areas has even expanded.

“This is starting to get ridiculous,” he said of the illegal pot shops, including nearby businesses that list themselves as churches and advertise marijuana as a kind of sacrament. “It’s almost like the state is setting itself up to lose.”

California gives cities wide latitude to regulate cannabis, resulting in a confusing patchwork of regulation. Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Jose and San Diego have laws allowing cannabis businesses, but most smaller cities and towns in the state do not — 80 percent of California’s nearly 500 municipalities do not allow retail marijuana businesses. The ballot measure legalizing recreational marijuana passed in 2016 with 57 percent approval, but that relatively broad support has not translated to the local level. Cities like Compton or Laguna Beach decisively rejected allowing pot shops.

Regulators cite this tepid embrace by California municipalities as one of many reasons for the state’s persistent and pervasive illegal market. Only 620 cannabis shops have been licensed in California so far. Colorado, with a population one-sixth the size of California, has 562 licensed recreational marijuana stores.

But the more fundamental reason for the strength of the black market in California — and what sets the state apart from others — is the huge surplus of pot. Since medical marijuana was made legal in California more than two decades ago, the cannabis industry flourished with minimal oversight. Now many cannabis businesses are reluctant to go through the cumbersome and costly process to obtain the licenses that became mandatory last year.

Of the roughly 14 million pounds of marijuana grown in California annually, only a fraction — less than 20 percent according to state estimates and a private research firm — is consumed in California. The rest seeps out across the country illicitly, through the mail, express delivery services, private vehicles and small aircraft that ply trafficking routes that have existed for decades.

This illicit trade has been strengthened by the increasing popularity of vaping, cannabis-infused candies, tinctures and other derivative products. Vape cartridges are much easier to carry and conceal than bags of raw cannabis. And the monetary incentives of trafficking also remain powerful: The price of cannabis products in places like Illinois, New York or Connecticut are typically many times higher than in California.

The state’s illicit cannabis exports appear to be increasing even now, well into California’s second year of legalization. New Frontier Data, a data research company that specializes in cannabis, calculates that high demand and more advanced growing techniques will contribute to approximately half a million pounds more illicit cannabis this year compared with 2018.

The federal government still considers marijuana illegal and the Drug Enforcement Administration says it still investigates marijuana-related crimes. But a spokesman, Rusty Payne, said the agency has a bigger crisis to attend to.

“We’ve got our hands full with the opioid epidemic to be honest,” Mr. Payne said.

In wildland areas, seizures of illicit pot by the California Department of Fish and Wildlife more than doubled in 2018, the first year that recreational cannabis was legal.

The department destroyed 1.6 million marijuana plants last year, up from 700,000 in 2017 and 800,000 the year before — all of them illegally grown.

“There’s a subset of people who are just refusing to get into the process,” said Nathaniel Arnold, the department’s deputy chief of enforcement.

The Bureau of Cannabis Control, the agency charged with regulating marijuana in the state, has received around 7,500 complaints, most of them about illegal operations, and has sent out more than 3,000 letters ordering illegal businesses to shut down.

Robert Taft Jr. says his licensed cannabis business in Orange County, south of Los Angeles, has seen sales drop in recent months.

It's a matter of time before we start making a dent in the illegal market,” said Alex Traverso, a spokesman for the agency, who acknowledged there were probably more illegal shops in Los Angeles alone than licensed shops in the entire state.

Cat Packer, the executive director of the Department of Cannabis Regulation in Los Angeles, said that even when illicit businesses were shut down, they often soon reappeared.

“It’s been a game of whack-a-mole in the city of Los Angeles,” she said.

But Ms. Packer also said the city was mindful that criminal enforcement in the past had disproportionately targeted people of color.

The city is seeking to find an effective enforcement policy that does not mimic the criminal interdiction policies of the past, Ms. Packer said. One strategy is to turn off water and power services to noncompliant businesses.

“We can’t do Drug War 2.0,” she said.

Mr. Taft, the cannabis entrepreneur, has sent 450 complaints to the Bureau of Cannabis Control and is unapologetic about his calls for an aggressive approach to illegal shops, which he says is the only way that California’s giant experiment will work.

His dispensary pays a cumulative state and local tax rate of 32.25 percent. Unlicensed shops pay no tax.

One of Mr. Taft’s biggest complaints is about Weedmaps, a phone app that allows users to locate marijuana businesses nearby, both licensed and illegal.

In February last year, the Bureau of Cannabis Control sent a letter to Weedmaps saying the company was aiding and abetting illicit businesses and ordering it to “immediately cease all activity that violates state cannabis laws.”

Weedmaps replied that it was a technology company and not under the jurisdiction of the bureau. More than a year later, the company still lists hundreds of unlicensed shops.

Earlier this year, Mr. Taft resigned as a board member of the Santa Ana Cannabis Association because half the members, he said, were selling illegally and using legalization as a “shield.”

“They are playing both sides of the market,” he said.

On a recent weekday morning, Mr. Taft called the Bureau of Cannabis Control to lodge a complaint against his neighbor, a cannabis business that he said did not appear on the list of licensed businesses.

“We are being pillaged by these people,” he said. “My lawyers are ready to launch rockets!”

But haven't regulation and taxation been two of the main arguments as to the benefits of legalizing drugs? If those components aren't in place, what is the forecast regarding distribution and use?

If we’re talking about weed, I tend to wager that part of the problem has been the “legalize and tax the shit out of it” mindset that we’ve been going with hasn’t helped. Dunno about CA, but in WA, the legal stuff is taxed 25% three separate times before it hits a store shelf, then there’s 10% sales tax on top. Tax the shit out of it, and a black market can still thrive.

Based on what I’ve been reading and hearing, meth is the bigger problem as far as what’s coming up from Mexico.

I’ve been arguing that legalization won’t stop the illicit drug trade, but would only enhance it by giving criminals more freedom to do “business”. It’s well past the time to declare war on the cartels. Not a monkey-fuck war of prosecution of mules and low level players. Slaughter them like roaches. If Mexico doesn’t fully endorse and physically support the effort, call them out as in cahoots and SLAM the southern door. Eradicate the vermin.

If this is covered in another poa, I apologize:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/...an-moms-and-children

The entire drug legalization argument is based upon the same premise as gun control. It is based upon the argument that people, who presently refuse to follow the law, will all of a sudden begin to follow the law if new laws are passed.

That all of a sudden if you make dope cheap and legal, they'll get a job and stop breaking into cars, and houses to support their habit. Or, they'll only break into 25 cars instead of 30 because it is cheap enough and they can buy it at CVS. They'll only kill two people for their stash instead of four. That all of sudden the judgement they exhibit today is miraculously going to change tomorrow with a new law or two.

That the reason why legalization hasn't worked in places is just because we need more of it for it to work.

People can post all the things they wish. Unless you are going to give out FREE dope, or cover it on Medicare for all, you still are going to have the related crime that either you will have to tolerate, or decide as a society that you want to "enslave" people into jails for stealing your stuff. Right now in Kentucky, 81 percent of all larceny is drug related. Which means the suspect stole the stuff to get dope, was under the influence of dope at the time of the crime, etc. Your only options are to make a dope welfare class, or lock their asses up for committing crimes. Every town is flush with treatment centers, and they don't work at the end of a government gun.

All concepts of drug legalization fails just like concepts of gun control fail. People who break the law on a routine basis are not going to start following it because there are a few new laws.

Choose wisely.

^ ^ ^ ^ Outstanding post.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
^ ^ ^ ^ Outstanding post.

Yes it is.

It's interesting how some countries live up to their stereotypes. Any western movie ever made has corrupt Mexican Officials.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
^ ^ ^ ^ Outstanding post.

^^^^^^^^^^
An additional cost is the social services drain drug users place on the system (tax dollars). The same applies to their families who routinely provide them support of one kind or another. This will never change as addicts can’t hold a job down for any consistent amount of time.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
^ ^ ^ ^ Outstanding post.

Agree 100%

Texas is ready:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...ng-its-own-navy/amp/

Actually I use the war on drugs as a prime example of why gun control will always fail.

Ask yourself this. Are the the corner liquor stores shooting it out over turf? Are the big liquor companies gunning hordes of people in third world countries to control smuggling routes. Are the neighborhood winos robbing people to buy their booze? Once upon a time this all happened, during Prohibition.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
The entire drug legalization argument is based upon the same premise as gun control. It is based upon the argument that people, who presently refuse to follow the law, will all of a sudden begin to follow the law if new laws are passed.

That all of a sudden if you make dope cheap and legal, they'll get a job and stop breaking into cars, and houses to support their habit. Or, they'll only break into 25 cars instead of 30 because it is cheap enough and they can buy it at CVS. They'll only kill two people for their stash instead of four. That all of sudden the judgement they exhibit today is miraculously going to change tomorrow with a new law or two.

That the reason why legalization hasn't worked in places is just because we need more of it for it to work.

People can post all the things they wish. Unless you are going to give out FREE dope, or cover it on Medicare for all, you still are going to have the related crime that either you will have to tolerate, or decide as a society that you want to "enslave" people into jails for stealing your stuff. Right now in Kentucky, 81 percent of all larceny is drug related. Which means the suspect stole the stuff to get dope, was under the influence of dope at the time of the crime, etc. Your only options are to make a dope welfare class, or lock their asses up for committing crimes. Every town is flush with treatment centers, and they don't work at the end of a government gun.

All concepts of drug legalization fails just like concepts of gun control fail. People who break the law on a routine basis are not going to start following it because there are a few new laws.

Choose wisely.

It's past time to designate the cartels as a Foreign Terrorists Organization. Start hunting down the cartel king pins like the are Hussein or Gahdaffi with the full use of the military.

I'd like to see Trump issue a travel ban to that shit hole until the cartels are under control or gone. Those resorts would dry up in a month and you would get some serious attention of the Mexican government. My wife would go there every year with her girlfriends. Always pissed me off some of my money was going into that shit hole. I'd always would try to convince them to spend their money in the states even if it's California just stay the fuck out of Mexico!

They just couldn't grasp the concept.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Ask yourself this. Are the the corner liquor stores shooting it out over turf? Are the big liquor companies gunning hordes of people in third world countries to control smuggling routes. Are the neighborhood winos robbing people to buy their booze? Once upon a time this all happened, during Prohibition.

The violence during Prohibition was from the gangs themselves. Not the end user of the alcohol. I doubt even the most hardened alcoholic will kill someone for bottle of boooze. If they were that far gone, the detox would probably kill him.

Illicit drugs seem to have a different effect on the user. They create an addiction strong enough that committing crime to maintain a habit is an easy bridge to cross.

It's just an observation. I have never used an illegal drug before. So I can't speak from experience.