quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
I will air this complaint here. I’m sick of hearing teachers complaining about their annual pay relative to the private sector, while ignoring the fact that they work only 9 months out of the year, get every holiday off, have two weeks at Christmas and another week at Easter, never seem to work past 4pm, and have nearly unlimited job security. Oh, but you must do lesson plans and grade papers? So what, a lot of jobs require after hours free work.

As I'm sure you know, teacher salaries in Utah are a matter of public record. A few years ago I looked up a couple I knew who were both teachers in a nearby school district, about 3 years from retirement. Salaries and benefits for one were about $133K, with the other at $129K. Granted the State counts everything contributed to each employee, so not all of those amounts would show up in their paychecks. The benefits for each were between $33 and $36K per year, including retirement, insurance, etc. This was for working 9 months a year.

$200 tax stamp for each kid, with prior approval from an overseeing government agency.

Problem solved.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

Originally posted by fwbulldog:
I'm ok with school taxes, but I think I should be able to direct those to a school of my choice if I choose to send my kids to private school.

Having said that, I expect accountability (which is where the whole thing falls to shit).

Why do you think you should be able to direct your money to where you want it, AND think you should be able to direct other people's money where you want it?

According to the 2010 census, there were 105.5M households in the US and 30.1M households had children under 18. Perhaps the 70% of the households want to direct their money so your children go to the cheapest school in the district. Even better, the 70% of households could and should vote that the 30% of households with children under 18 pay their own way.

How many of those 70% HAD kids in schools? Or consumed the "Free" education at those schools themselves. But hey they got theirs, screw everyone else. Lets can Social Security too. Why am I paying for SS? Never got anything from it, likely never will. And no you are not getting the money you put in, back. The collecting generation is getting the money the current workers are putting in.

How many red herring arguments do you intend to make in this thread (police, library, food stamps, courts, social security)?

The constitution does not require the DoE or public schools. The argument for paying your own way for primary education is the same as the argument for paying your own way for secondary education (You or own family receive the benefit and should pay for it). The only difference is primary education is more broken because the government is more involved and the funding is by force (i.e. don't pay school taxes and eventually men with guns and handcuffs will show up and evict you).

You have also made a false analogy that people from prior generations who received a public education received the same POS public education that a kid today would receive. People are not saying we got ours and screw everyone else. We're saying the current indoctrination system is broken and we don't want to fund something that is broken.

If it were effectively delivering quality educations routinely and efficiently, I'd be the biggest fan in the world.

I started school at the end of the Truman Administration, and have experienced and observed it ever since, including putting my own kids through.

The school system does not do a decent job of educating. It does not serve the needs of its pupils more than a lick and a promise. And this despite the citizens of the US pouring more and more money down what has become a rat hole of incompetence, abuse, waste and ineffectiveness. The teachers in most cases are underpaid, yet more and more money is provide, hideous sums, for the children, taxes, lottery surpluses, cake drives, bake sales, car washes, who knows what all.

The myth of local control fools nobody. The school boards have no real say in how to run their districts. All they are doing is interpreting and obeying edits from Washington, or the state DOEs. A fair amount of the money is corrupted by local power plays, skimming, etc.

The school system is far more costly now than ever and far more expensive, totally or per pupil.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
I don't use police services, why should I pay for them?
I don't use the library why should I pay? No food stamps why should I pay?

Any one supporting this nonsense see a trend?

Yeah, and I LIKE the trend you're pointing out!

Charity (food stamps) doesn't belong in government hands. Whenever the government gets involved in "charity", it degenerates to vote buying. Charity belongs in the hands of families, churches, and fraternal organizations. Keep the government's out of it, and the government's hand out of my pocket!

You want a library? Then form a group of like-minded individuals who want to create one and go do it yourself. Or, alternatively, set up a for-profit library where you charge people by the day they have the book, or the hour they sit in your building reading it. Don't tax the snot out of me to give yourself a gift.

We are not just cows that can be milked for cash to buy votes.

Thanks,

Sap

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

Originally posted by fwbulldog:
I'm ok with school taxes, but I think I should be able to direct those to a school of my choice if I choose to send my kids to private school.

Having said that, I expect accountability (which is where the whole thing falls to shit).

Why do you think you should be able to direct your money to where you want it, AND think you should be able to direct other people's money where you want it?

According to the 2010 census, there were 105.5M households in the US and 30.1M households had children under 18. Perhaps the 70% of the households want to direct their money so your children go to the cheapest school in the district. Even better, the 70% of households could and should vote that the 30% of households with children under 18 pay their own way.

How many of those 70% HAD kids in schools? Or consumed the "Free" education at those schools themselves. But hey they got theirs, screw everyone else. Lets can Social Security too. Why am I paying for SS? Never got anything from it, likely never will. And no you are not getting the money you put in, back. The collecting generation is getting the money the current workers are putting in.

How many red herring arguments do you intend to make in this thread (police, library, food stamps, courts, social security)?

The constitution does not require the DoE or public schools. The argument for paying your own way for primary education is the same as the argument for paying your own way for secondary education (You or own family receive the benefit and should pay for it). The only difference is primary education is more broken because the government is more involved and the funding is by force (i.e. don't pay school taxes and eventually men with guns and handcuffs will show up and evict you).

You have also made a false analogy that people from prior generations who received a public education received the same POS public education that a kid today would receive. People are not saying we got ours and screw everyone else. We're saying the current indoctrination system is broken and we don't want to fund something that is broken.

Red Herring? What the hell are you talking about?
Every program is funded by taking money from many, and providing a service that you may or may not use or be qualified for. Same as how schools are funded.
But that's completely different because? Reasons.

The constitution does not require social security. The constitution does not require low income housing, but yet there they are. 1/3 of the federal "budget" is for entitlement programs. Can I have 1/3 of my taxes back please, since I don't use any of them? Broken? Lets talk SS. Been paying in for 40 years will most likely never see a dime back. Where did all that money go? Stolen to fund someone pork project?
Tell me again why I should pay for police? Never called them once. It should be pay as you go right?

Please do expand on how someone that got a public education in the past did not have their education paid for by someone else.

So once more, because you don't "like" or "use" a government service, you can opt out.
Good. When can I get my money back for the services I don't like or use?

What about liberals who want nothing to do with the military? Can they opt out of paying taxes for that too?

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
Red Herring? What the hell are you talking about?
Every program is funded by taking money from many, and providing a service that you may or may not use or be qualified for. Same as how schools are funded.
But that's completely different because? Reasons.

The constitution does not require social security. The constitution does not require low income housing, but yet there they are. 1/3 of the federal "budget" is for entitlement programs. Can I have 1/3 of my taxes back please, since I don't use any of them? Broken? Lets talk SS. Been paying in for 40 years will most likely never see a dime back. Where did all that money go? Stolen to fund someone pork project?
Tell me again why I should pay for police? Never called them once. It should be pay as you go right?

Red Herring - something that distracts attention from the real issue. They're all red herrings as they have nothing to do with funding schools and since property taxes to pay for school aren't required by constitution voters can decide to quit funding. If you'll look back in the article I posted in the OP this is a BALLOT MEASURE which is why your red herring arguments are silly.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
Please do expand on how someone that got a public education in the past did not have their education paid for by someone else.

So once more, because you don't "like" or "use" a government service, you can opt out.
Good. When can I get my money back for the services I don't like or use?

Yes, someone from a previous generation who attended public school did have it paid for by all tax payers. However, my point that the education received today by current generations isn't the benefit to society that it was past generations. Once more, this thread is about a BALLOT MEASURE to alleviate everybody from having to fund the education of other people's children. This isn't unilaterally opting out like the silly argument you keep making.

I’m a fan, let’s do this, now. Tired of it. Next year I will have paid them to offset my public education, 13 years. It’ll be paid back so let the parents pay for the school themselves.
They are raising property values here 50k per year. Fucking tired of the shit.

Between the NEA, the unions and the administrators it just seems it is less about educating kids - it's waste, fraud and abuse on a national level. Property taxes up, always a bond and levy (for the children). So I am for this, get control of this out of control spending that only produces lackluster results.

I started my cynical view of public schools during my high school years, late 60's to early 70's. We were warehoused, pure and simple. If you fell outside of the "good little boy or girl" mould you were shunned. I was one.

While not a delinquent, I skipped a lot and got away with it. A HS counselor actually told me in his office that I should just drop out as I was just wasting everybody's time. The Co-Op Ed teacher even though at the time I had a firm job offer in the field that I had a summer's experience in refused to help me, he told me that in his exact words "I don't help losers".

I got to rub his nose in that statement a few years later. He came into the car dealership that I was employed as the parts assistant manager. Suffice to say he kind of recognized me and asked if I was one of his students. He got a reply that he was not expecting. Politely I told him that he refused to help me and I had gotten where I was by my own work ethic and if anything his refusal made me better. Incidentally this "loser" got his diploma in night school after ten hour work days, just retired from that line of work of 47 years, was at one time Firefighter 1 and 2 certified, EMT Basic licensed, turned down a LEO offer (wife got cold feet) and am working part time in retirement by choice, gotta keep active.

My children during the 80's and 90's, between the schools throwing money around like drunken sailors on leave because they could hit the taxpayers up, the dumbing down of the curriculum and the imposing of liberal dogma instead of encouraging a student to have their own opinions made me glad that they have gotten to the level that they are at, one with a Masters and the other with a two year degree, both working in local government jobs.

I don't blame the teachers, I blame the administrators. Our old school district did not believe in linoleum flooring for the student areas, they wanted carpeting. The district tried to float a bond issue, IIRC 60 million in the mid 90's to buy computers when they could lease them cheaper. Well the bond issue was shot down, guess what, they leased them and the school board touted their newfound frugal thinking.

We went to an open house at the above middle school. When we went into a couple of classrooms to talk to the teachers that night we all got "educated" on how we needed to pass the aforementioned bond issue. That pissed me off to the point I called the Superintendent's office the next morning to voice my objections. We were invited on the premise of being able to talk to teachers, administrators and school board members, not to be indoctrinated on "it's best if you vote yes".

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
but I think most people, given a choice, would do what is best for their children.

You assume that most people know what is best for their children.

Sadly, most people who calve children nowadays don't have clue one how to raise and/or educate their offspring.

I always kind of thought of it as repaying the debt of education given to the adult. Obviously fuzzy math, but that's the reality of any socialized service.

One there was a kid in my class who had grabbed a loose end of a carpet fiber and was pulling it up. Sort of ruining the carpet. I remember the teacher told him --
1.) STOP IT!, and
2.) Be advised, by the time this place gets around to fixing that, you'll be the one paying the taxes that fund it. That always stuck with me.

I am one of those unqualified teachers you all are complaining about. Teacher pay has been stagnant for 10 years, and teachers are leaving the profession/state at a clip of ~325/month, if you believe the propaganda. You can point to teachers only working 9 months, but the exodus tells you that our state is paying below market value.

To fill the gap, they are handing out emergency certifications like party favors. I'm currently on one of those, but I'm working to get full certification. I will note there weren't exactly folks lined up to take the job. Would you prefer I quit?

Are there changes that could be made? Absolutely. For one thing, a state of 4M people doesn't need 520+ school districts, each with associated administrators. Every little town with 400 people has its own school, but most refuse to consolidate.

You can complain about teachers teaching the test, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a teacher to know what, say, an Algebra 1 student is expected to know at the end of the year. The state gives us standards, and we are supposed to teach to those standards (e.g. Students should be able to "calculate and interpret slope and the x- and y-intercepts of a line using a graph, an equation, two points, or a set of data points to solve realworld and mathematical problems.") I also don't think any of us would like (as students) to be tested on something we haven't learned. Folks make it sound like I have a secret answer key to the SAT in my desk. I do not.

By all means, open us up to competition. Get involved with your local school. The more people working to solve the problem, the better. It beats complaining about it and then ignoring it. Goverment of the people doesn't work if people don't show up.

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
Red Herring? What the hell are you talking about?
Every program is funded by taking money from many, and providing a service that you may or may not use or be qualified for. Same as how schools are funded.
But that's completely different because? Reasons.

The constitution does not require social security. The constitution does not require low income housing, but yet there they are. 1/3 of the federal "budget" is for entitlement programs. Can I have 1/3 of my taxes back please, since I don't use any of them? Broken? Lets talk SS. Been paying in for 40 years will most likely never see a dime back. Where did all that money go? Stolen to fund someone pork project?
Tell me again why I should pay for police? Never called them once. It should be pay as you go right?

Red Herring - something that distracts attention from the real issue. They're all red herrings as they have nothing to do with funding schools and since property taxes to pay for school aren't required by constitution voters can decide to quit funding. If you'll look back in the article I posted in the OP this is a BALLOT MEASURE which is why your red herring arguments are silly.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteF:
Please do expand on how someone that got a public education in the past did not have their education paid for by someone else.

So once more, because you don't "like" or "use" a government service, you can opt out.
Good. When can I get my money back for the services I don't like or use?

Yes, someone from a previous generation who attended public school did have it paid for by all tax payers. However, my point that the education received today by current generations isn't the benefit to society that it was past generations. Once more, this thread is about a BALLOT MEASURE to alleviate everybody from having to fund the education of other people's children. This isn't unilaterally opting out like the silly argument you keep making.

Are you trying to be obtuse? Or do you really have no idea what you are talking about? Tell me how the police that are funded by the same property taxes is a "red herring". You think how much money is spent on education is something you vote on? Wake up. Policy is only minimally effected at a local level. State and federal requirements are the drivers.

So on your opinion the quality of today's education is no good? Maybe move to a better school district. My daughter is taking college level courses as a JUNIOR in HS. She is taking the courses I took 40 years ago as a Hs senior and college frosh. You know those worthless courses like calculus, physic and chemistry.

Yep learning about those subjects is a complete waste of time, not valuable at all. / sarc off

Sorry, I haven't thoroughly read the thread, but do I understand that some of you want to be taxed?

Soon as it becomes education instead of leftist indoctrination we’ll talk, until then hell yes I should be able to opt out.

Education, police, fire.....all could be pay as you go. In many places medical (ambulance services) are private, and they survive just fine. The poor, poor children that many are worried about in this thread are fine in this system. The ambulance services actually make a profit if they are run like a business, with no tax payer funding or support.

It might reduce the load on the police/fire if people actually had to pay for what they actually used.

I am absolutely bewildered by people who hang around here that call themselves conservatives, but when the time comes to cut the fat, they are nothing but liberal boot lickers. Like most good liberals, they are pretty good at double speak and emotion, but that is truly about it. It shouldn't be shocking though. Look at the number of establishment Repubs that campaigned on tax breaks, repeal O'care, etc, that when it came time, they too exposed themselves as part of the problem, and nothing of the solution.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
What about liberals who want nothing to do with the military? Can they opt out of paying taxes for that too?

The military and the common defense are actually specified in the Constitution as one of the main purposes of our federal government:

Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense....

Also, on a previous page I attempted to differentiate police protection from other services like education:

Originally posted by PeteF:

quote:

I don't use police services, why should I pay for them?
I don't use the library why should I pay? No food stamps why should I pay?
Any one supporting this nonsense see a trend?

I see police services differently than the others. The police power is an extension of the sovereignty of the State. It is a theoretical monopoly on the use of force (other than self-defense) and it is non-negotiable.

Other government services are different. They were voted into existence, and they can be voted out of existence. Before the "progressive" era, beginning around 1900 or so, most schools were private and voluntary. Ever hear of a volunteer fire department? The same is true with private lending libraries, usually operated by churches or schools.

When enough people decide they aren't getting what they are paying for, they have the power to change things back in the direction of freedom and individual responsibility, and away from socialism.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
What about liberals who want nothing to do with the military? Can they opt out of paying taxes for that too?

The military and the common defense are actually specified in the Constitution as one of the main purposes of our federal government:

Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense....

Also, on a previous page I attempted to differentiate police protection from other services like education:

Originally posted by PeteF:

quote:

I don't use police services, why should I pay for them?
I don't use the library why should I pay? No food stamps why should I pay?
Any one supporting this nonsense see a trend?

I see police services differently than the others. The police power is an extension of the sovereignty of the State. It is a theoretical monopoly on the use of force (other than self-defense) and it is non-negotiable.

Other government services are different. They were voted into existence, and they can be voted out of existence. Before the "progressive" era, beginning around 1900 or so, most schools were private and voluntary. Ever hear of a volunteer fire department? The same is true with private lending libraries, usually operated by churches or schools.

When enough people decide they aren't getting what they are paying for, they have the power to change things back in the direction of freedom and individual responsibility, and away from socialism.

If you go back far enough, so were police and fire. A thousand years ago, at least in European cultures, the big guy provided defense, land for crops, animal husbandry, while the serfs (everyone else) owed service, army, crop harvest, etc. The church provided whatever education was thought necessary.