Situation: I am selling a high end rifle to a person (transfer will be done in person at a Gunstore/FFL), and the buyer don't have enough cash. I want to purchase a new pistol at the same Gunstore/FFL the same day he will be doing the purchase.

Can the buyer of the firearm I am selling pay for the pistol "I want to purchase", using his credit card? Meaning he will pay for the firearm that "I want to purchase", and I will be the one filling out the Form 4473.

Or is this not a big NO? I looked up "Straw Purchase" and the description states something like "a criminal act in which something, especially a firearm, is bought by one person on behalf of another who is legally unable to make the purchase themselves".

I can legally purchase any firearm I want. I have multiple State CCW. Its just ny buyer dont have enough cash. And there is a pistol I want.

Not a lawyer

I believe that could be seen as a straw purchase and the retailer will tell you to get bent

He should be able to pay for it, I've had my wife pay for a gun as a gift and I did all the paperwork.

Depends on the store, I'd ask them if that's ok.

Straw is where one person buys a gun for another, meaning person A is the actual buyer signing the 4473 in order to provide the gun to person B.

In this case the OP is completing the 4473 and buying the gun, the other person is providing payment

Again though you are right it depends on the store.

Ask the gun store that's doing the transfer, not us!!!!!!!!!!

I will give the store a call and ask. They know me since I have been going to the store for several years. I just thought I ask here for opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Again though you are right it depends on the store.

OK thanks. I will report back on what they say.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Ask the gun store that's doing the transfer, not us!!!!!!!!!!

Not a lawyer but I believe the important part is the person keeping the gun does the 4473, who pays for it is irrelevant. I've been part of several officer/sergeant major retirements where the unit paid for the firearm, but the awardee had to do the paperwork.

If you can honestly answer “yes” on Form 4473 question 21(a), then I don’t see a problem.

Many people get this wrong. The regulation applies to the transfer of the firearm not how it is paid for. How the money changes hands is of no interest to the ATF, transfers can be purchases, trades, or gifts.

Two ways of looking at the transaction proposed by the OP:

1) there are two transfers going on, one to the recipient of the long gun, one by the eventual recipient of the pistol. The long gun is a private transfer, the pistol is an FFL transfer.

2) there are three transfers going on, one to the recipient of the long gun, one to the intermediary who initially receives the pistol, one to the eventual recipient of the pistol. One FFL transfer, two private transfers.

You can count on the ATF to take the most draconian interpretation of any transfer should they ever have cause to investigate anything. In addition, if your State is a UBC (Universal Background Check) State, it may mandate that private transfers go through an FFL. If interpretation #1 is preferred, it may be best to not allow the intermediary to even touch the pistol in question. He pays for it, but the item is handed to you by the dealer.

I am not a lawyer, but I am a C&R FFL, and have referred to the ATF's reference manual. In other words, I make no claim on being 100% accurate in what is written above, just my beliefs.

who pays and who the gun is transferred to are not required to be the same party. a straw purchase would be if he filled out the 4473 and gave you the pistol in trade

As an FFL I would say that technically yes it can be done. I would also say that most guns shops will not do it simply due to perception. If it is a relative then it is easy to say it is a gift (which is allowed). Complete stranger? That looks bad.

I just came from doing a transfer where the transferee accidentally hit "no" on 21a and I didn't catch it before submitting. I was paying attention to the NICS check and had to keep refreshing the screen because this guy's was super common. Anyway, before I was an FFL and had fill out 4473s in gun stores, all paperwork was totally done and over with before it came time to pay. I'm pretty sure anyone could tap their credit card at that point and everyone would be fine with it.

I would question why the buyer doesn’t have enough cash. Wasn’t the price agreed upon? If it’s a high end rifle and he can afford it, I don’t see why he can’t scrape the money ahead of time.

Have you done business with this FFL before on an ongoing manner? If I were you and I learned the CC charge was later disputed, i would hate being a part of that situation.

I haven't called the gunstore/FFL yet to ask about the arrangement. I have used the Store/FFL many years. They know me. However, the cc "dispute" part after the sale already got me thinking (even before you posted your comment). I have decided to decline the offer to buy. Thanks for all the feedbacks.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
I would question why the buyer doesn’t have enough cash. Wasn’t the price agreed upon? If it’s a high end rifle and he can afford it, I don’t see why he can’t scrape the money ahead of time.

Have you done business with this FFL before on an ongoing manner? If I were you and I learned the CC charge was later disputed, i would hate being a part of that situation.

Pass this one up. I have had similar situations in life and have been pleased that I passed it up.

As a former ATF agent I can tell you that while this might not be the clearest transaction in the world that there is not a US Attorney in the United States that would attempt to make a case out if this. Having said that, If you want to be super, super clean and clear have the purchaser of this rifle purchase a gift certificate from the shop for the exact amount of the pistol in question with his credit card. He then gives you the cash and the gift certificate in exchange for the rifle and then you purchase the pistol with the purchased gift certificate. Everything stays super clean and there’s no credit card transaction associated with your pistol purchase in the store’s records or point of sale system, just the gift certificate. There’s no crime being committed either way, but this would be the most bulletproof way to conduct the transaction, and exactly how I recommended people to handle similar transactions for my entire agent career.

Not enough cash? Next!

I can imagine the possibility of an FFL not wanting to deal with a transaction like this, but if the person who fills out the 4473 is the same person who takes final possession of it, that is not a straw purchase.

as described in the OP, it could and will be considered a Straw,


however, ATF allows someone to purchase a gift card for another,
and that other person (the OP) can use that gift card as they see fit, as in buy the other gun,

If I were the retailer, I'd be wary of the credit card user initiating a chargeback, claiming to have purchased a pistol but never received it.

...or some other scam...