Public sector jobs shouldn't be able to unionize and they shouldn't have defined benefit pensions. Taxpayers end up taking the shaft.

Public schools should be a thing of the past. Privatize, let people send their kids to schools of their choosing. Instantly eliminates school boards which with few exceptions are merely tools to enrich the administration types, add a ridiculous layer of bureaucracy, and usually ignore public sentiment.

And yes, even the military needs to transition from the current retirement model. Economics is science and math says these models aren't sustainable.

West Virginia, Oklahoma, Arizona, Colorado...and probably others that I've missed...this is not a state sponsored issue...this is a nationally coordinated effort that is implemented and evident at the state level...and during an election year.

I'd like to see the states resist these teacher protests and strikes, but I doubt that they will.

I also believe that public education should be eliminated and privatized and that government workers should not be able to strike or receive defined benefit pensions.

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
My dream is that the state plays hardball, find individuals to teach as subs to fill in the gaps. I know I'd love to pick up a couple of teaching shifts on my days off.

Good morning boys and girls, today's history lesson will be on Jack White, how he made strike busting profitable and its implications for the current situation...

Here's a newsflash, based on personal experience:
If the opportunity to "fill-in" at the old schoolhouse occurs, be sure to leave your nice pickup at home and drive a $100 Hoopty to and from work! Vandalism is often rampant during these events...

Just sayin, Enough said!
Don

quote:

Originally posted by Icabod:

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:
Apparently the 20% raise proposed by the governor wasn’t good enough. Fire everyone who walks out.

"Their demands specify a 20% raise immediately next year. But that wouldn't even bring their pay up to the national average. At $47,403, the average Arizona teacher's salary has fallen more than 10% since 1999 when adjusted for inflation. The national average is currently $58,950. ...

When comparing a teacher's salary to the national average, keep in mind that teachers have the summer off.

quote:

Originally posted by John Steed:

quote:

Originally posted by Icabod:

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:
Apparently the 20% raise proposed by the governor wasn’t good enough. Fire everyone who walks out.

"Their demands specify a 20% raise immediately next year. But that wouldn't even bring their pay up to the national average. At $47,403, the average Arizona teacher's salary has fallen more than 10% since 1999 when adjusted for inflation. The national average is currently $58,950. ...

When comparing a teacher's salary to the national average, keep in mind that teachers have the summer off.

I think the 47k figure is average teacher pay not general population. But I support the effort of the NEA, the various state associations and individual teachers to have all teacher pay be above the national average...but then I went to public school and have math challenges of my own.

[/QUOTE]When comparing a teacher's salary to the national average, keep in mind that teachers have the summer off.[/QUOTE]

The one thing that they do get screwed on is having to spend a ton of their own money for their own classroom supplies. This is even harder to take when you have admin staff at the disctict level making 6 figures

quote:

Originally posted by wishfull thinker:

quote:

Originally posted by John Steed:

quote:

Originally posted by Icabod:

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:
Apparently the 20% raise proposed by the governor wasn’t good enough. Fire everyone who walks out.

"Their demands specify a 20% raise immediately next year. But that wouldn't even bring their pay up to the national average. At $47,403, the average Arizona teacher's salary has fallen more than 10% since 1999 when adjusted for inflation. The national average is currently $58,950. ...

When comparing a teacher's salary to the national average, keep in mind that teachers have the summer off.

I think the 47k figure is average teacher pay not general population. But I support the effort of the NEA, the various state associations and individual teachers to have all teacher pay be above the national average...but then I went to public school and have math challenges of my own.

One thing the NEA intentionally does to rile up teachers and state their case is to compare local teacher's salaries to national averages, and then for good measure they usually throw in a national high like NY. They universally fail so share teacher's salaries in relation to cost of living indexes. Here is what I mean, if a school district is lower quarter of teacher pay and the the school district is also in a city that is in the same quarter of cost of living then is there is likely nothing wrong with teacher pay.

Last week, we had an example of that in Oklahoma where the NEA was doing the same thing (sharing average and NY), but they were the 5th lowest cost of living in the US. It would've been a logical argument if they were the #25 or #26 cost of living in the US, but not when they were the #5.

It is true (obviously), that teachers get summers off and that 50% of states will pay teachers below the national average teacher salary. My question is if you are losing people from the profession faster than you are gaining them (and the number of students is increasing), isn’t the salary below market value?

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
And yes, even the military needs to transition from the current retirement model. Economics is science and math says these models aren't sustainable.

I do not disagree. We’ll see what happens to retention with the new plan.

quote:

Originally posted by Herknav:
It is true (obviously), that teachers get summers off and that 50% of states will pay teachers below the national average teacher salary. My question is if you are losing people from the profession faster than you are gaining them (and the number of students is increasing), isn’t the salary below market value?

Good one, I had to think about this for a bit.

A major problem is the artificial scarcity of labor built into the public school hiring. In most states you have to have a degree in education to teach, a 4 year or more proposition. The issue that could be dealt with if the school boards across the nation had the hair to deal with it, would be to be able to hire qualified people, regardless of the degree held or any at all for that matter, let administrators and boards figure it out. .

Does one need a degree in education to teach a voc tech machine shop course or could a journey man or master machinist do the deal? A BA in ed can get you in front of a math class even if you can't balance a checkbook. A PhD in math will send you back to college for ed major classes.

So, if there really is a hiring crisis then one step to fix the prob would be to take the same direction as many private schools, hire the competent regardless of the letters on the degree. And it seems that private schools compete very nicely with the .gov institutions.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Public sector jobs shouldn't be able to unionize and they shouldn't have defined benefit pensions. Taxpayers end up taking the shaft.

Public schools should be a thing of the past. Privatize, let people send their kids to schools of their choosing. Instantly eliminates school boards which with few exceptions are merely tools to enrich the administration types, add a ridiculous layer of bureaucracy, and usually ignore public sentiment.

And yes, even the military needs to transition from the current retirement model. Economics is science and math says these models aren't sustainable.

+1

The Cost of Private School

According to figures from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), about 4.5 million American children were enrolled in private schools in 2011-2012. More than 80% of these students were in schools with some kind of religious affiliation. About 43% were in Catholic schools, and another 37% went to schools identified as generally Christian, Jewish, or a specific Christian denomination. About 68% of all private schools have a religious orientation, while 32% are nonreligious.

On average, the cost of private school tuition for the 2011-2012 school year was $10,740 per child, according to the NCES. That’s a significant burden for a middle-class family. In 2014, the national median household income in the United States was $53,657, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. That means that a family making the median income would have to spend about 20% of its income to send just one child to private school, and 40% for two children.

However, the cost of tuition varies significantly depending on the type of school. The average tuition cost was $6,890 per year for Catholic schools, $8,690 for other religious schools, and a whopping $21,510 for nonsectarian schools. So a family with average income would pay less than 13% of its income to send a child to a Catholic school, but over 40% for a nonreligious school.

https://www.moneycrashers.com/...ool-cost-comparison/

The biggest problem preventing many parents from putting their kids in private/parochial schools is that they have to double-pay. They have to pay for the government school whether they use it or not. If they don't use it, they ought to be able to use their money elsewhere. Then there would be more competition.

Interesting editorial on the looming Arizona teacher's strike. I'm honestly surprised the Arizona Republic printed it given their liberal slant.

With the strike planned so late in the year after the legislative session was scheduled to end and close to the end of the school year they hope to create a crisis in which they will force the state to meet all of their demands. I think that teachers and their union are going to get a rude awakening. People are pissed now that things such as proms and graduations are thrown into question. People are pissed now that they're having to take time off or incur extra expenses now that their children are not in school. People are going to be pissed at teachers rather than supportive the longer that this drags out.

https://www.azcentral.com/stor...-contract/537176002/

Boas: An Arizona teacher strike now violates the social contract

Philip Boas, opinion columnist Published 12:57 p.m. MT April 20, 2018 | Updated 8:27 a.m. MT April 21, 2018

It doesn’t take a master’s degree in human relations to understand that a teacher strike now breaches the social contract.

Noah Karvelis, one of the leading organizers behind the strike, unwittingly frames the betrayal: "We can no longer allow the status quo in this state to go unchanged.''

Well, fine.

But understand the status quo is not indifference. It isn’t the governor and the Legislature and the voters turning to teachers and telling them to go to hell.

In fact, it’s the opposite.

State is working to improve schools

The state of Arizona has just come out of the cold of the worst economic crisis of our generation, out of a jobless recovery that robbed earning power of people all across this state – not just teachers. Today the economy is robust, and Arizona voters and political leaders are working to increase the money flow to public schools.

Here’s how:

Nearly two years ago, voters approved Proposition 123, a 10-year $3.5 billion boost to public education.

That increase meant Arizona school districts saw a $341 million increase in operational spending and $200 million boost in instructional spending from fiscal year 2016 to 2017, according to the state Auditor General.

Teachers weren't shortchanged.

Since Prop. 123 passed in 2016, they have on average enjoyed a 5-percent pay raise, according to the Arizona Association of School Business Officials.

Also in 2016, voters passed every school bond measure and override in Republican-dominant Maricopa County.

More money for schools.

This year, Republican lawmakers Doug Coleman and Kate Brophy McGee led the charge to extend Proposition 301, which was scheduled to sunset in mid-2021. The governor signed the bill into law and thereby assured the continued flow of $667 million per year into the public schools for another 20 years.

Ducey proposal is substantial

As the teachers threatened to strike, Ducey stepped forward with a proposal for a permanent teacher pay increase of 20 percent over the next four years.

That’s a giant and complicated investment in the teachers of this state.

While Ducey tried to develop details on how he could achieve that without raising taxes, the teachers stopped the discussion, violated the social contract, and now plan to strike to muscle the governor, the Legislature, the voters into compliance.

They want it all:

* A 20-percent pay increase. Now!

* A billion dollars in restoration funding to 2008 levels.

* Competitive salaries for all support staff.

* A permanent salary structure that includes annual raises.

* An end to state tax cuts until Arizona per-pupil funding reaches the national average.

Ducey critics squawk and whine

There are a number of left-wing critics, eternal Ducey-haters, cheering on a teacher strike and bashing the governor no matter what he says or does.

They’re easily exposed with a single question.

Did you support Proposition 123?

If they say no, then they went against virtually all of the public-school leadership in this state who looked at Prop. 123 from all angles and decided this is what’s best for our schools, our teachers and our students.

Even Joe Thomas, the leader of the Arizona Education Association and eminence grise to #RedforEd, strongly supported Prop. 123.

Here’s what he argued at the time:

“Overall, this ballot measure will bring $3.5 billion dollars to schools over the next 10 years and confirms that Arizona will fund inflation in perpetuity, while creating a 10-year additional funding source for schools.”

Pretty good stuff.

He goes on…

“Improving our public schools and doing what’s best for our students has always been the Arizona Education Association’s goal and this is a first step in a larger education funding conversation at the state level.”

This week, Joe Thomas and the teachers shut down the conversation. They breached the social contract that requires that when people are working to help you solve your problem you don’t hit them with a sledgehammer.

We don’t do that in civilized society. When we’re all focused on the problem, we work together, despite our differences, to try to solve it.

In the past month, we’ve all gotten an education on teacher suffering. They are underpaid. They have been neglected for too long.

Teachers about to get an education

But the teachers themselves are about to get an education on the rest of Arizona, on the construction workers and the retailers and the factory workers and the accountants. They too suffered in the economic downturn. They too lost jobs, careers, prime earning years, and watched their 401ks and eventual retirements dissolve into dust.

Those damn-Ducey-if-he-does, damn-Ducey-if-he-doesn’t critics were happy to deny the public schools billions of additional dollars in revenues in 2016 so they could nurse a political grudge. Teachers and students be damned.

Those critics aren’t credible now.

They’ll rail against the governor for not doing enough for schools, but he can put his record of tangible results, of billions of dollars plowed only recently into the public-school system, up against their broken record of squawk and whine, squawk and whine.

The foolishness of this strike is written in the demands of the teachers. The billions of additional dollars coupled to permanent revenue streams point to only one solution:

A ballot measure.

You’ll need a substantial increase in the sales tax to accomplish it, and that means you’ll need voters.

Try asking them for their tax dollars after you’ve just told them you’re shutting down their public schools.

Try winning their vote when you've said, "It's my way or the highway."

You can reach Phil Boas at phil.boas@arizonarepublic.com

Please keep in mind that many teachers here, like my wife, whole heartedly support the Red for Ed campaign, but do not endorse walking out on classes; they simply have no choice. My wife feels that the whole reason she is there is for the students, so it makes no sense to abandon them for a day or two, no matter how good the cause. Unfortunately, she was informed by her district that to avoid complications they are just going to close all the schools for two days. You didn't want to walk out? Too bad. Now you get to do the make up days too.

And to put things into perspective for those who don't live in AZ: after teaching in the same district for three years, my wife's pay still doesn't even equal what her student loan debt is. We also put about $3k of our own money (of which we only get about $250 back in taxes) into the classroom each year because there "just isn't the funding for supplies". And with all of the mandatory meetings, trainings, lesson planning, and other miscellaneous required activities she has - and DOESN'T get paid for - she is putting in 60+ hours a week.

AZ really is bottom of the barrel when it comes to the education system.

Just went through this here in Oklahoma. School was shut down for damn near 2 weeks. Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by Hunthelp:
My lovely and vivacious wife, who left AZ’s teaching field two years ago, reminds me that AZ doesn’t have a “union” and only has an association.
Her first hand experience is the association is in lock-step with the administration. She says the association reps which might get involved in any issues are first in line for promotion into upcoming admin positions.

She left after eight years of no meaningful raises.

When she would get a raise, it was matched by a corresponding increase in their insurance costs.

She blames much of the problem on the school boards and administration.

The state (governor) has offered a 20% increase over three years. But, only for the teachers and there is no guarantee the school boards turn the dollars into teacher raises.

The group leading the teacher effort is pushing a governor candidate so there are lots of allegations the walkout has now morphed into a political fight. The walkout proponents are now saying nothing is being done for the bus drivers, secretaries, school nurses, etc.

It will be an interesting couple of weeks.

My wife said she would take the 20 percent and let the other was fight along side of the social services employees, the department of public safety employees and other state employees.

Interesting times.

*******************************************

This ^^^^^^^

The School Boards and the Teacher's Association
officials are where the fires should be lit.

There is plenty of $$$ for teachers if the systemic waste and the abuse of funding allocations could get fixed. Good teachers deserve good pay and should be rewarded according to performance.

Top heavy Association officials should be streamlined. Teachers should demand their share from School Boards and insist that funding waste be eliminated.

After weeks of hearing about this on radio programs and web news articles the one thing I've never heard mention of is an audit. Open the books right now and show the public exactly where the money went that could have been used for raises. How many useless expenditures might we find, hmmm???

I think this article might have posted in another thread. Link.

Cut and paste if the above doesn't work. http://thefederalist.com/2018/...to-students-parents/

One of the article points that stands out to me is the increase of "all other staff." Typical bloated .gov boondoggle.

Yes, having an educated society is in our best interests and I don't mind paying for that through taxes even though I have no children. I'd like to see them get a raise to stem the exodus Arizona is experiencing.

It's my impression that when we think "government" schools are somehow separate but in the end, they are government employees and took the job with their eyes open. If they walk out then fire them. Immediately.

Finish the year without using students/families as pawns and then let the state know that they won't be back at the beginning of the next school year.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by KBobAries:
After weeks of hearing about this on radio programs and web news articles the one thing I've never heard mention of is an audit. Open the books right now and show the public exactly where the money went that could have been used for raises. How many useless expenditures might we find, hmmm???

I think this article might have posted in another thread. Link.

Cut and paste if the above doesn't work. http://thefederalist.com/2018/...to-students-parents/

One of the article points that stands out to me is the increase of "all other staff." Typical bloated .gov boondoggle.

Yes, having an educated society is in our best interests and I don't mind paying for that through taxes even though I have no children. I'd like to see them get a raise to stem the exodus Arizona is experiencing.

It's my impression that when we think "government" schools are somehow separate but in the end, they are government employees and took the job with their eyes open. If they walk out then fire them. Immediately.

Finish the year without using students/families as pawns and then let the state know that they won't be back at the beginning of the next school year.

Dan

**************************************
Dan has a good suggestion here. Why not demand that the books be opened to the public???

We should be informed where our money goes - both at the Federal Level and at the State Level.

This came across my desktop;

"I will make this email short. I am a teacher. Let me say, although teachers do deserve a raise, the Red for Ed movement is led by a communist named Noah Karvelis. He is 23 years old and is in his first year teaching. He teaches 5th grade music classes and teaches rap. He openly says he hates capitalism, but says he is not a communist. He also was a volunteer worker for the Bernie Sanders campaign. You piece the puzzle together. If a teacher does not teach tomorrow, you can enroll your high schooler in my school.

Overall though, enroll your children in Charter schools if you have any indication your public school is moving far to the left. My school will be open for business tomorrow. If you know any teen in Mesa, AZ that is in high school, we still have open enrollment, and we do not indoctrinate our students."



If any teachers choose not to show up for work, fire their asses. Any other job....no shows get fired. Simple, but won't happen. This pushy, commie, give me what I want or else shit has got to stop. You didn't choose to become a teacher to get rich, you went into it knowing damn full well you'd live in poverty. My parents were both teachers and raised me in poverty just fine, deal with it.

quote:

Originally posted by phydough:
This came across my desktop;

"I will make this email short. I am a teacher. Let me say, although teachers do deserve a raise, the Red for Ed movement is led by a communist named Noah Karvelis. He is 23 years old and is in his first year teaching. He teaches 5th grade music classes and teaches rap. He openly says he hates capitalism, but says he is not a communist.

The leader of "Red for Ed" -- who does he remind me of? Let me think. Oh yeah, that other imbecile, David Hogg:

Slight thread creep. Someone said that their annual salary isn’t even what their college loan debt balance is.

People, this is real simple. It might be too late for you or for your spouse but for fucks sake teach your children. College is an investment. It isn’t an experience or an experiment, a time to grow, blah blah blah. It CAN be all those things but first and foremost it is an investment.

Would you buy a mutual fund knowing you would get back pennies on the dollar? Of course not. Are you one of those people who ignorantly think of your car as an investment? If the answer is yes then you also probably overpaid for your college degree.

At a minimum, if you think you are going to enter a field that you think is underpaid then look around for bargains in the education area. Go to community college get your 2 years of basics and then find an inexpensive way to get the last 2 years and your diploma. Work your way through college and pay down your debt as you go.

Entering life with a huge financial albatross around your neck is STUPID. And 100% avoidable. It’s too late for you but it’s not for our children.

Preparing for incoming sob stories.