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Fighting the good fight![]() |
As a LE trainer, active shooter response trainer, and TCCC trainer, I've long been a proponent for tourniquets. In the last two decades, we've seen a 180 degree about-face in how TQs are viewed. Prior to that, tourniquets were seen as an absolute last resort. But after the trauma experience gained in Iraq/Afghanistan, they quickly became a first response to major appendage bleeding, and TQs became standard equipment for each soldier. That then quickly migrated to the LE world, with TQs becoming standard issue equipment for LEOs too, and TQ training and frequent drills added to the police academy curriculums and refresher trainings. And it then naturally made it to the civilian world, with TQs becoming standard in everyone's medical kits, SHTF kits, look-cool-on-Instagram plate carrier rigs, etc. However, even with all their upsides and their lifesaving potential, it's important to remember that TQs do have their downsides, and they can be used improperly. I ran across this interesting article today, from https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gl...-amputations-deaths/ :
The unique circumstances of the Ukraine war are well-positioned to highlight the downsides of TQ use. Namely the minimal training the Ukrainian troops and especially squad medics receive, combined with the inability to rapidly evacuate casualties to a higher level of care due to lack of transportation, lack of air superiority, and constant killer drone presence. These combine to create a perfect storm where TQs are being used when unnecessary, improperly applied, and left on too long. Now, these issues obviously wouldn't be present in many "normal" non-military scenarios. A wounded LEO or active shooter victim is quite likely to be able to get to a higher level of care in much less than a couple hours. But there's still room for improvement on things like better training on TQ placement and use beyond the common and easy to remember "Put it high and tight, and use a second one if the first one doesn't full stop the blood flow". Along with an increased emphasis on removing clothing and pocket contents before application, which is often overlooked in many LE/civilian TQ trainings. But it does present some interesting points about how medical protocols in the US military might also need to be altered while planning for the next peer/near-peer conflict, where we may not have guaranteed medevac all the time. As a result, we might see the TQ start to shift back towards more of a last resort in that context. And for things like wilderness first aid, or especially those intending to use them for SHTF/prepper purposes, these risks are also much more of a reality. *It's also worth nothing that the commonly accepted <2 hour window of safety is quite conservative, and not a hard and fast rule. Studies conducted during the GWOT showed that TQs can often be left on for 4-6 hours without further harm. But less time is better, obviously. | ||
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| His diet consists of black coffee, and sarcasm. ![]() |
"The Almighty, He put some livin' things on this earth so a man can eat." - Festus Haggen, Gunsmoke | |||
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Step by step walk the thousand mile road![]() |
Then it isn't a tourniquet problem; it is a logistical problem. How many of those 75,000 amputees would have died of exsanguination absent application of the tourniquet? Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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| Shoulda Coulda Oughta Woulda |
Yup. And countless others would have bled to death. | |||
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Fighting the good fight![]() |
Well, the commonly quoted statistic is that ~50% of military and civilian TQ applications are unnecessary (at least in hindsight). So probably about half. But then you also have to factor in the number of those who died because of complications like compartment syndrome or kidney failure from the effects of overuse of TQs, and that meant that some of those who wouldn't have died ended up dying. But I concur that it's a logistical/training/doctrine issue. And I'm definitely not advocating for not using TQs. It's more about highlighting that TQs may not always be a first resort in every situation if it can be managed with something else (or at least converted to something else once in a safer situation if rapid evac isn't going to be possible), and that there's a need for better training in TQ use beyond the quick and easy to remember "High and tight/use as many as needed/go straight to a TQ anytime there's a serious appendage bleed". Which is how TQs are commonly taught in things like basic Stop The Bleed classes and LE training, and seems to have been what's taught to the poorly trained Ukrainian soldiers as well. | |||
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| Member |
I've seen way, way too many TQ applications that were totally unnecessary! Gunshot to the forearm, calf, outer thigh, bicep, and not a lot of bleeding, yet some dumbass that thinks they are saving lives is slapping on a TQ. "But that's how we were trained!" BULLSHIT! No you weren't! 4X4's and some kerlex / gauze, a compression bandage, and about a hundred other things (T-Shirt, towel...) to stop the bleeding until an ambulance gets on scene. Ambulance arrival time for me? less than 10 minutes. ______________________________________________________________________ "When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!" “What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy | |||
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| Shall Not Be Infringed |
Tourniquet Conversion...I learned something new here. AND Need to learn More! Thanks for posting this ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 47....Making America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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| If you see me running try to keep up |
I read something similar earlier this week and I was thinking back to my EMT training in the 90’s. TQ’s were the last resort and were only to be used when nothing else could be done. I do see quite a few tacticool guys carrying them but I wonder how many have been trained on their use. Had one early 20’s guy say how we needed to have a trauma kit at church in case something happened. I responded, “or we cold call 911 and get the fire department that is 1/8 mile away to respond”. It is staffed 24/7 with fire and medical personnel. I do have my own trauma bag (with TQ) but that is only carried when I am traveling or out hunting somewhere remote where medical help is not likely. | |||
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| John has a long moustashe ![]() |
I've used them twice-a suicidal party with down-the-arm slices and a motorcycle accident with amputation. There was a deputy shot (at my former agency) who was trying to put one on his leg when the SWAT medic got to him and advised he did't need it because there was no major leaking going on. That was a sursprise, as we all thought that a TQ goes on anytime there are holes where there shouldn't be any. | |||
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| No, not like Bill Clinton ![]() |
I have been planning on getting a couple and putting together an aid bag I was trained constantly on tourniquets while in the Army but we had to make our own. Don't forget the large bloody T on their forehead | |||
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| Just because something is legal to do doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do. |
double tap Integrity is doing the right thing, even when nobody is looking. | |||
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| Just because something is legal to do doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do. |
That matches with the training I got in late 80s and early 90s. Integrity is doing the right thing, even when nobody is looking. | |||
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| Member |
Navy was the same way when I was learning to be the "Doc". Tourniquet only if lots of gauze and direct pressure isn't working (and if medevac wasn't on the way). Big T on the forehead. And use belts, rifle slings, socks, boot blousers, etc. first instead of your issued tourniquets; resupply might be iffy for your kit. | |||
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Oriental Redneck![]() |
Lol. I didn’t even need to read the article to already know that was coming. Bottom line, it’s not the TQ’s fault, now, is it? Q | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
I’m not sure I buy the whole two hour thing. Years ago, I worked a shooting where the victim took a fairly close range thigh hit that clipped the femoral. Responding officers applied a TQ on scene. It was applied properly but did not fully stop the bleeding. A second TQ was applied directly below it. He was flown from the scene to Vandy. I received photographs of the wound pre-op (about 5 hours later), and our TQ could be seen in the background on the leg. The victim recovered and could walk. That is a one of but not uncommon for what I’ve seen. My rule of thumb is “that’s a lot of fucking blood”. When I help my medics teach TCCC, I tell the new guys “if you look down and say to yourself ‘that’s a lot of fucking blood’ you probably need to put a tourniquet on. If not, direct pressure will probably work.” Well, probably 5 years ago, we taught a class and I said that and everybody giggled. A couple days later, one of my guys responded to an incident where an 18 month old girl was ran over accidentally by a lawn mower. Basically severed the leg above the knee. My guy runs up and you can hear his somewhat panicked voice surveying the horrific scene “Holy fuck that’s a lot of blood”. He took a deep breath and applied a tourniquet. He saved the little girls life. We had a good laugh after the fact about what he blurted out. ________________ People hate you. Train like it. | |||
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| Just for the hell of it ![]() |
I think, as with anything, people need to use common sense, and training needs to also explain that while they save lives, they are not always indicated. _____________________________________ Because in the end, you won’t remember the time you spent working in the office or mowing your lawn. Climb that goddamn mountain. Jack Kerouac | |||
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For real?![]() |
Funny TQ story. Was on scene and dude was screaming at me to use a tourniquet and I was like what do you want me to do, put it around his neck? I told him to keep applying pressure. I didn't know it was the kid's father. He had three holes in his chest. EMTs arrived shortly thereafter and I went to check on his other kid who had more holes in him. Not minority enough! | |||
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| Member |
Right tool right time is the key. A lot of people carry TQ’s and don’t understand this. The VAST majority of extremity GSW’s WON’T need a TQ. Just like quick clot ( we used to call it “magic pixie dust” in the early to mid 2000’s ) it has a place but is not a panacea! The key here is EDUCATION AND TRAINING Regarding TQ time I myself working in orthopedic surgery ( controlled environment I know) have seen us put TQ up ( inflating TQ in OR ) and leave it in place for several hours with no I’ll effects. Sure, we try to limit TQ time but it is not always possible. Direct pressure a good solid dressing and/ or packing the wound is the 90+% solution. The old saying if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail applies | |||
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| Member |
When I was a little kid, I fell on a broken bottle running down the middle of railroad tracks. I was sitting up on my butt on a railroad tie, and the blood was spurting up about a foot or so from my lower leg. A military police officer saw me and scooped me up, and placed clamped his hand on my cut and squeezed it hard, and delivered me to a Navy medical dispensary and a young Lt. doctor placed a blood pressure cuff on my thigh and sewed it up lickity split. Being small I asked him if it was a tourniquet, and I don't remember his answer, but I can tell you that for a very tiny amount of drag on my left lower leg when walking to this day I have no lingering negative effects. If that was a tourniquet per se it was obviously used correctly. That police officer and surgeon saved my life. If he had not seen me passing in his green Navy police truck I would not be here today. I wish I knew who he was, I could have looked him up a long time ago. God bless him, and the Navy surgeon. Lover of the US Constitution Wile E. Coyote School of DIY Disaster | |||
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| We Are...MARSHALL |
A lot of valid points in the article. Tourniquets can and do save lives when necessary and applied properly. I’d say 30% I see come in from the field aren’t applied properly ie not tight enough. When we get a patient with a tourniquet we assess the ABCs and then release the tourniquet to examine the issue and define our plan for management. Honestly it’s rare that we reapply the tourniquet as the bleeding is stopped. I routinely use a tourniquet for amputations in the OR. Typically the tourniquet is in place for 10-20 minutes depending upon the resident working with me. The two hour time frame mentioned is extreme. I typically see minimal residual effects if the tourniquet is removed within 4 hours or so. I’ve seen some longer without issues but it’s risky. Build a man a fire and keep him warm for a night, set a man on fire and keep him warm the rest of his life. | |||
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