quote:

Originally posted by LS1 GTO:


"Flying" and "landing" are not the same thing as taking off and stabilizing flight profile.

And this is why i dont participate in aviation threads. And Jimmys “im
Not a pilot but listen to my opinion anyway. My entire post was about taking off from the ground and climbing from V1 until a safe altitude. You cherry pick one instance of particular phrasing and ignore the rest, are you guys trying to learn or just be argumentative?

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quote:

Originally posted by jeffxjet:

quote:

Originally posted by LS1 GTO:


"Flying" and "landing" are not the same thing as taking off and stabilizing flight profile.

And this is why i dont participate in aviation threads. And Jimmys “im
Not a pilot but listen to my opinion anyway. My entire post was about taking off from the ground and climbing from V1 until a safe altitude. You cherry pick one instance of particular phrasing and ignore the rest, are you guys trying to learn or just be argumentative?

Actually, i am agreeing with you. No cherry picking

Oh, and i was in the F-14 community about 17 years. Shorter takeoff and landing but, same concept.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Around 9 years ago a light twin (Beechcraft Baron) lost an engine on take off and hit the roof of a house that was 7 houses from mine, caught the roof on fire, landed in the backyard engulfed in flames, but all 3 people in the plane walked away. It made one hell of a noise. Was told they were underpowered and couldn't build altitude on 1 engine.

https://www.wptv.com/news/stat...o-beach-neighborhood

Doesn’t sound like they walked away:
“"Me and my next door neighbor ran over pulled the pilot and the co-pilot out of the wreckage over there and dragged them to the street, then we went back and they said there was a third person and we went back there and found her in the next yard," said Ferris.

Ferris and his neighbors then grabbed garden hoses and tried to control the flames until firefighters arrived. Pompano Beach's Fire Chief says there were two men and a woman on board. They suffered significant burns. He said 30 to 40 percent of their bodies were badly burned.“

Small Plane Crashes Into House in Florida Neighborhood, Injuring 3
“Three people -- two males, one female -- were on the plane and taken to local hospitals, according to officials. They are listed in serious to critical condition.“

The Beechcraft Duchess didn’t lose an engine. There was an instructor and two students practicing engine failures. The student screwed up and the instructor failed to recover the aircraft:

Beech 76 Duchess, N6709Y, Florida Aviation Academy: Accident occurred April 25, 2016 near Pompano Beach Airpark (KPMP), Broward County, Florida
“While on the right crosswind leg of the airport traffic pattern, about 600 ft above ground level, the flight instructor retarded the right engine throttle lever, reducing the right engine power to idle. The pilot then pressed hard on the right (incorrect) rudder pedal with enough force that it moved the flight instructor's foot off the left rudder pedal. The airplane immediately rolled violently to the right before the flight instructor took control of the airplane; however, the airplane had entered a dive and the flight instructor was unable to recover before the airplane collided with a residence. The flight instructor is responsible for monitoring the students performance providing remedial action immediately if necessary. In this case, the instructor’s delayed remedial action did not allow for recovery before the airplane struck the residence. All three pilots stated that there were no preimpact mechanical malfunctions with the airplane and postaccident examination of the wreckage did not reveal any.“

Jimmy, your heart is in the right place; you want people to survive and you’re looking for a way it could have happened. That Duchess loaded weighed 65 times less than the UPS flight’s fuel load alone. We’ll see what the NTSB investigation concludes in a year, but it’s not looking like there was anything the UPS pilots could have done differently to change the outcome.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:


Around 9 years ago a light twin (Beechcraft Baron) lost an engine on take off and hit the roof of a house that was 7 houses from mine, caught the roof on fire, landed in the backyard engulfed in flames, but all 3 people in the plane walked away. It made one hell of a noise. Was told they were underpowered and couldn't build altitude on 1 engine.

Bullshit! How many hours do you have, as PIC (Pilot In Command) in Barons?

I have hundreds of hours logged, as instructor, in these. Rate of Climb with one engine is around 400' / minute at full gross weight. With only three people on board, the airplane that you refer to is well under maximum gross weight and climb performance would be better than 400 fpm. Poor climb performance with an engine out is almost always due to faulty pilot technique.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffxjet:

Jimmys “im Not a pilot but listen to my opinion anyway.

He has been doing that for many years.

A Beech Duchess != a Beech Baron. Not even close.

The earliest 55 Barons had two six cylinder Continental engines at 260 hp each. Power went up in later versions, including the 56 Baron (testbed for the Duke engines) at 385hp per side.

The Beech Duchess has two four cylinder Lycoming engines at 180 hp each.

Now I have no time in the Duchess, but I’ve got about 1500 hours in the Beech Travel Air, which is the predecessor to the Baron and it is not underpowered with two 180 hp Lycomings. The Baron which is built on the same airframe and the Travel Air and the Bonanza is certainly not underpowered.

Looking at the article, that Duchess went down because it was allowed to depart from controlled flight, not because of how much power it has.

I would not expect good results in any twin after allowing the airplane to depart, no matter how much power it has.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
Thanks V-tail.

Needs to be tested / verified every two years. The maintenance shop at Our Little Airpot was not equipped to do this, so they made a list of everyone who needed it done and had a guy and his wife come over from the Deltona area. Their van had all the necessary testing equipment, and a bunch of the repair parts for the most likely problems. It's been a while since I sold the v-tail, but I believe the charge for the test / recertification was around $150.00 if no repairs were needed.

Biennial IFR certs are now commonly $400 around here.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

The earliest 55 Barons had two six cylinder Continental engines at 260 hp each. Power went up in later versions, including the 56 Baron (testbed for the Duke engines) at 385hp per side.

I would not expect good results in any twin after allowing the airplane to depart, no matter how much power it has.

I was partners in a 56TC for a couple of years, incredible airplane with a single engine service ceiling of over 18,000'. I took it to FL320 once "just because".

A test pilot friend who flew a borrowed 55 Baron in Africa when trying to fly as slow as the Rutan Voyager was flying to gage fuel onboard to determine if the round-the-world un-refueled flight was possible, or call it off over land got so slow the Baron departed and entered a spin. Obviously he recovered, but Beech test pilots wanted to know a lot about how my friend achieved recovery. A lot of luck.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:

Or maybe they should have flown with their seatbelts off, so they could be thrown clear from the crash... Eh, Jimmy?

"...I'm not a pilot. ..."
First correct thing you've stated in this thread.

But, but, ... he's a Captain! Knows all, tells all.

20 years and you guys are still at it??? Nothing better to do? See there's a difference between you two children and Jeffxjet who is a mature adult who answers questions with scientific fact and why things happen without being a condescending child. Nothing better to do at John Knox Village today???

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:


Around 9 years ago a light twin (Beechcraft Baron) lost an engine on take off and hit the roof of a house that was 7 houses from mine, caught the roof on fire, landed in the backyard engulfed in flames, but all 3 people in the plane walked away. It made one hell of a noise. Was told they were underpowered and couldn't build altitude on 1 engine.

Bullshit! How many hours do you have, as PIC (Pilot In Command) in Barons?

I have hundreds of hours logged, as instructor, in these. Rate of Climb with one engine is around 400' / minute at full gross weight. With only three people on board, the airplane that you refer to is well under maximum gross weight and climb performance would be better than 400 fpm. Poor climb performance with an engine out is almost always due to faulty pilot technique.

It was a Beechcraft 76 DUCHESS not a BARON. We all know, you've been flying since the wright brothers. You never stop informing us of that. If you're the expert why does Beechcraft say that it can only climb at 50FPM on 1 engine with a loss of engine and feathered prop?

Why do you cherry pick everything I say????? Then make it a point to make an arguement. I WAS TOLD........do you have an issue with reading comprehension???? READ EXACTLY WHAT YOU HIGHLIGHTED. WAS TOLD!!!!!!!!! I didn't state it as fact. Is there something wrong with you???

You, sigmonkey and others have driven away so many good members from here that there hardly are any posts each day and I rarely visit this board anymore. You 2 are unbelievable, really. There used to be 10x as many daily posts 10 years ago, than there are today. Just look how disgusted Jeffxjet is who took the time to explain the answers to my questions without being a condescending keyboard warrior. This is a GUN forum not an AIRCRAFT forum, so it would be expected that experienced aircraft guys would be a minority on a GUN forum, or did you forget which forum you are on?

The post I wrote that started this entire thread of immature nonsense of 5 pages was..... "I'm no pilot, but I would much rather take my chanes over running the runway while still on the ground than lose an engine on take off."

As for the Beechcraft 76 dutchess. The 3 pilots were standing in the street when paramedics arrived, they had severe burns. My house is 6 or 7 houses away and I was home at the time and walked over. SO YES, any crash landing that all people live and survive is a good crash landing. They were stunned/knocked out whichever at first because the plane impacted the top of a roof, then crash landed off of the roof into a back yard and hit a big palm tree. Neighbors got them out right away. If you watch the video, the one neighbor who rescued them said the pilot and co pilot were standing next to the plane. The lady was in a different yard.
https://cbs12.com/news/local/p...ome-in-pompano-beach

Being a pilot in the same state you should have known about the crash, and I guess you know more than Beechcraft themselves, because this is straight from Beechcrafts PILOTS OPERATING HANDBOOK.

"The Beechcraft 76 Duchess can maintain altitude on one engine, but it is crucial to be aware of the single engine service ceiling and the best rate of climb (Vyse) and angle of climb (Vxse) for single engine performance. The single engine service ceiling is the maximum density altitude at which the aircraft can maintain a 50 fpm climb with one engine operating at full power and one engine with a feathered propeller. If the aircraft is above this ceiling when an engine fails, it will drift down to its single engine service ceiling. It is essential to determine this ceiling during flight planning using the single engine service ceiling chart from the Pilot's Operating Handbook (POH)."

I'm too busy going out and having fun doing things, than to deal with this stupidity. I was out on my 96 mph boat today, which does almost fly (it's a catamaran) along with 10 friends on theirs and we all ran across Lake Okeechobee to Roland Martins for lunch and then back today.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

I'm too busy going out and having fun doing things, than to deal with this stupidity.

Then why waste time posting here when you know a majority of the people here don't like you? Nobody is making you come here.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
The post I wrote that started this entire thread of immature nonsense of 5 pages was..... "I'm no pilot, but I would much rather take my chanes over running the runway while still on the ground than lose an engine on take off."

Yes you did. Then, after it was explained why that is not what pilots would actually do, you doubled downed with a story you half remembered and got most of the facts wrong e.g., you said it was a Baron, as an example of why your original idea could have worked.

You could have asked a question. Instead, you chose the path of sheer arrogance and/or ignorance. Three professional experienced pilots die doing the best they can in the given situation following procedures developed by people with untold hours of experience and expertise in these matters, but you have the answer that could have saved the day. This is what gets you picked on every single time you post this way on any subject.

On the other hand, there’s really no point in calling you out for this anymore.

jimmy, a long time ago, I unintentionally ran off a good member of this forum in my efforts to keep other members off your back, and they were on you for the kind of shit you're doing right now. Despite the fact that you have a tendency to disrupt threads from time to time with this know-it-all BS of yours, I couldn't have possibly been more fair to you.

I have addressed your behavior more than once, and yet here you are, pulling the same shit. You don't do it all the time, but you most certainly do it, and this stops right now.

For some reason aircraft threads attract all kinds of “knowledge”. I try to avoid these threads because of that. Unlike many subjects where the average joe defers to the professionals when they state the why’s, when it comes to airplanes everybody feels that they are the SME.

It is very similar to a conversation I had with my wife this week. She asked about the UPS crash and I gave her a simple V1/decision speed/balanced field length/go-no go thumbnail of what those guys were basing their decisions on. She straight up looked at me, a Naval Aviator, Navy flight school instructor, and a major airline pilot, and stated quite emphatically “well that doesn’t make sense at all”. I chuckled and told her I guess maybe we’ve been doing it wrong all this time. She smiled and said perhaps she might, might be wrong. lol

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
For some reason aircraft threads attract all kinds of “knowledge”.

A lot of people (well, one in particular) "know" things that just are not true.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
For some reason aircraft threads attract all kinds of “knowledge”. I try to avoid these threads because of that. Unlike many subjects where the average joe defers to the professionals when they state the why’s, when it comes to airplanes everybody feels that they are the SME.

It is very similar to a conversation I had with my wife this week. She asked about the UPS crash and I gave her a simple V1/decision speed/balanced field length/go-no go thumbnail of what those guys were basing their decisions on. She straight up looked at me, a Naval Aviator, Navy flight school instructor, and a major airline pilot, and stated quite emphatically “well that doesn’t make sense at all”. I chuckled and told her I guess maybe we’ve been doing it wrong all this time. She smiled and said perhaps she might, might be wrong. lol

The other subject everybody is an expert on is the Constitution and Criminal Law, as a lawyer I learn so much from the experts, who never went to law school or passed the bar.

I was just happy that my wife acknowledged it was “possible” that she might be wrong. lol


Edited to add: no, we know we are wrong but we just like needling lawyers. lol

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I was just happy that my wife acknowledged it was “possible” that she might be wrong. lol

It's the "little" things.