after claiming diplomatic immunity. This, Friends, is turning into a real sh*t-storm over here. I KNOW what you think [mostly] about the WP, but they seem to have gotten all their ducks in a row on this one.

A U.S. diplomat’s wife killed a British teen in a wrong-way collision, police say. She claimed immunity and fled the U.K.

LONDON — An American woman, the wife of a U.S. diplomat, has fled the United Kingdom after killing a British teenager in a wrong-way collision, authorities revealed Saturday. The Aug. 27 wreck left 19-year-old Harry Dunn dead after the woman allegedly collided with Dunn’s motorcycle near the Royal Air Force Croughton station, which is operated by the U.S. Air Force.

Offering his sympathies to the family for their “tragic loss,” British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said Monday that he hoped the woman, who has been identified as 42-year-old Anne Sacoolas, would return to Britain to face justice.

Speaking to the BBC, Johnson said: “I hope that Anne Sacoolas will come back and will engage properly with the processes of law as they are carried out in this country.”

“If we can’t resolve it, then of course I will be raising it myself personally with the White House,” he continued. (The State Department declined to confirm her identity after Johnson’s statement.)

The tragedy sparked widespread outrage after authorities revealed that Sacoolas claimed diplomatic immunity under international law, allowing her to avoid prosecution and leaving British authorities and Dunn’s loved ones to demand that she return to face the consequences of her actions.

In an emotional plea on Saturday, Dunn’s parents begged President Trump to intervene and to send Sacoolas back to Britain.

“President Trump, please listen,” Dunn’s mother, Charlotte Charles, said in an interview with Sky News. “We’re a family in ruin. We’re broken. We can’t grieve. Please, please, let her get back on a plane, come back to the U.K. . . . We could understand how she’s feeling, but more importantly, she needs to face justice, see what she’s done."

Under the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, family members of diplomats living in other countries are covered by immunity, allowing them to avoid arrest for virtually any crime and escape civil liability in most circumstances. However, the diplomat’s home country can also choose to waive immunity — and that’s what British authorities and Dunn’s loved ones are calling for in this case.

Nick Adderley, chief constable for the Northamptonshire Police, said Sunday that both he and the police chief have asked the U.S. Embassy “in the strongest terms” to waive the woman’s immunity “in order to allow the justice process to take place.”

Nick Adderley
@NorthantsChief
The short answer is yes. Both @Stephen_Mold and I have written, in the strongest terms, to the US Embassy urging them to apply the diplomatic immunity waiver in order to allow the justice process to take place. https://twitter.com/copcrusty/.../1180759898365317120 …

Chief Wiggum
@CopCrusty
Replying to @PFEW_Chair
Question for @NorthantsChief Was this women’s lawfully entitled to claim diplomatic immunity?

137
9:56 AM - Oct 6, 2019
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In a statement Sunday to The Washington Post, British Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said that he “called the U.S. ambassador to express the U.K.’s disappointment with their decision, and to urge the embassy to reconsider it.”

A State Department spokesperson said in a statement to The Post that “immunity is rarely waived," adding that officials are in “close consultation” with British officials but that officials could not elaborate on private conversations. The spokesperson said the State Department offered its “deepest sympathies" for the Dunn family.

“Any questions regarding a waiver of immunity with regard to our diplomats and their family members overseas in a case like this receive intense attention at senior levels and are considered carefully given the global impact such decisions carry,” the spokesperson said.

Following the revelation Saturday that Sacoolas had fled, Dunn’s parents launched a #Justice4Harry campaign that has since drawn the attention of British lawmakers and thousands of supporters. Charles told Sky News that there was “barely a day that went by where [Harry] didn’t go out riding on his bike,” racking up 50,000 miles of travel on his black Kawasaki.

A fundraising page that was created to help the family with their quest for justice has attracted hundreds of donations, with more than 6,000 pounds ($7,300) raised so far. “Harry’s loss has left an enormous hole in the lives of the family and they are understandably going through a shattering and life changing time,” the page reads.

Dunn’s family said he was hit around 8:30 p.m. about 400 yards from the Air Force facility. The collision happened after he rounded a bend, leaving him little time to react to the American driver coming on the wrong side of the road. Dunn sustained serious injuries, then died at a hospital, Northamptonshire Police said at the time of the collision.

During the investigation, the American woman cooperated “fully” with police, and even assured them “she had no plans to leave the country in the near future,” Northamptonshire Police Superintendent Sarah Johnson said in a statement Saturday.

But then police learned the driver would be claiming diplomatic immunity, and they made an immediate waiver request to the U.S. Embassy in London, a spokeswoman told The Post. That request was denied, she said.

“We’re disgusted, appalled, how she could be having this cloak wrapped around her,” Dunn’s father, Tim Dunn, told Sky News. “I’m angry that someone could do this and then get on a plane and go.

“I can’t believe she’s living with herself,” he added.

American diplomats have been involved in numerous overseas deaths in recent decades, but they have largely avoided punishment under diplomatic immunity, even amid tense pressure from the countries where those incidents took place.

In 2018, a military attache at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, Col. Joseph Emanuel Hall, ran a red light and killed a 22-year-old man on a motorcycle. Hall left Pakistan after U.S. authorities refused to waive his diplomatic immunity.

In an infamous case that also took place in Pakistan, Raymond A. Davis, a CIA contractor working in Lahore, claimed he shot and killed two men on motorcycles in self-defense as they approached him in an apparent robbery attempt in 2011. The two nations disagreed on whether Davis could be granted diplomatic immunity — and so Pakistan released him from jail only after as much as $2.3 million in “blood money” was paid to the families of the dead men, sparking protests.

But even if diplomats flee prosecution in other countries, that does not mean they cannot face consequences in the United States.

For example, Christopher VanGoethem, a U.S. Marine heading security at the U.S. Embassy in Bucharest, allegedly drove through a stop sign and smashed into a taxicab in 2004 — killing a beloved musician named Teofil Peter, who had been likened to a “Romanian Bruce Springsteen,” Newsweek reported. Again, the U.S. government did not waive immunity, but the Marine faced a court-martial upon his return to the United States.

The consequences were few. In 2006, he was acquitted of negligent homicide, as well as adultery for an alleged affair with an embassy secretary. But he was found guilty of obstruction and making false statements. VanGoethem was sentenced to a letter of reprimand, avoiding up to 10 years in prison.

Some foreign diplomats living in the United States have not been so lucky.

In 1997, when Georgian diplomat Gueorgui Makharadze slammed his Ford Taurus into a row of cars at a stoplight in Washington’s Dupont Circle and killed a teenage girl, the United States asked Georgia to waive immunity, which the country did. Makharadze was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to seven to 21 years in prison.

It’s unclear whether pressure from British lawmakers [sic] will sway U.S. officials after they have already facilitated the 42-year-old woman’s return to the country and shielded her identity.

Angela Rayner, a member of Parliament and the Labour Party’s shadow education secretary, said on Twitter that “diplomatic rules should not be used in this case.”

“This is heartbreaking and nobody can be above the law,” Rayner wrote, using the #Justice4Harry hashtag. “If you are here in the U.K. then you must abide by our own rules. This family deserve answers and respect shown to their son.”

Someone is gonna do it, so it might as well be me...



Seriously though...the situation is very sad for the young man's family. Responsibility and accountability...too many don't know what that is anymore. If a diplomat, say from Italy, ran over a loved one, I would certainly want that person to NOT hide behind some political veil. One of the primary mantra's of Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People..."Do The Right Thing". I hope Mrs. Sacoolas does so...

Immunity should have been pulled long ago. This isn’t the purpose of Diplomatic Immunity. Hell, she isn’t even the diplomat (and, yes, I know family members are covered).

She's perverting the law. She should be flown back in cuffs to face justice. This kind of thing damages the reputation of the United States and diminishes the value of associating with us.

Why hasn't this been resolved by now? Appears to not be a situation for which the immunity laws were written, so waive immunity and send her back to be treated like everyone else would be. It's a blemish on our system that it isn't already done.

This happened Aug 27th and it's just hitting the press...well, US press anyways?

The diplomatic corps has always carried themselves with a better-then-thou haughtiness, she needs to return to face her crimes. The UK is an ally and diplomatic immunity was created to protect those countries from a kangaroo court, which the UK does not have.

This is just wrong. I cannot believe for a moment that evading justice for an alleged crime of this nature, in a country that is our ally and has civil and criminal justice systems similar to our own, was the intent of diplomatic immunity.

I will be writing President Trump directly, protesting this travesty.

tac, link to original article, please?

If she had/has immunity, then she had no reason to flee. IMHO, fleeing should automatically waive one's immunity.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
This is just wrong. I cannot believe for a moment that evading justice for an alleged crime of this nature, in a country that is our ally and has civil and criminal justice systems similar to our own, was the intent of diplomatic immunity.

I will be writing President Trump directly, protesting this travesty.

tac, link to original article, please?

Here ya go - AN original article- they are all over the national press -

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/05...n-flees-uk-10865703/

It has been all over the TV news here over the last day or so, too. Not certain why it's taken so long to pop up. It's pretty sad all round.

This is not an easy one. My guess is that it is above the ambassador’s pay grade to waive immunity, and if not then he would absolutely want cover from above before doing so.

IFF the article is right and IFF I read it correctly, she was driving on the wrong side of the road. Working and driving over there for a year and a half I never made that mistake there, but while back in the states for a friend’s wedding I briefly went into the wrong (left) lane while making a left turn before realizing and correcting. I don’t know that she committed an evil crime, but it appears that she made a mistake with tragic consequences. Manslaughter charges would not seem amiss.

If diplomatic immunity means what it says she can’t be held responsible. Yet the notion that she can’t be held responsible for taking a family’s nineteen year old son away from them seems absurd. This does not seem like any easy one to resolve. I hope that those responsible for figuring this out (State right up to PDJT) can come up with an appropriate resolution.

Having grown up in a U. S. diplomatic family, I can tell you this sort of thing happens a lot more than is revealed. Most of it involves diplomats TO the U. S. or the U. N., and most of them manage to skate. They typically high-tail it for the motherland, where they disappear, never to face justice from the home country. But their careers are over, even if they don't face the hangman.

Sadly the laws around diplomatic immunity will never change because it only benefits the elite politician who also make the laws.

I'm going to likely get flamed for playing devil's advocate here, but whatever. Under 'current' Diplomatic Immunity law this woman is not liable for anything she did in the UK (as disgusting as I find that statement). That's just the way it is. I feel for the deceased family and agree diplomatic immunity laws have been abused beyond belief, but they're still in place and effect, and must be adhered to. I think it would set a horrible precedent and open the door to all kinds of unintended consequences worldwide if Trump and/or the US government were to waive immunity for this woman. Personally, I'd like to see her tried and hung for what she's done (assuming she was found guilty), but I think waiving immunity in this case would be a very bad idea.

Liable or not, what she did was wrong, morally. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

In the absence of diplomatic immunity, what would the procedure be? Extradition request from the UK, extradition hearing here stateside, and then depending on the hearing, remand overseas for trial?

If that's the deal, I would have no issues if President Trump waived immunity.

I would expect the same from our UK buddies, if some British diplomat drove on the wrong side of the road here and hit someone.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
Under 'current' Diplomatic Immunity law this woman is not liable for anything she did in the UK (as disgusting as I find that statement).

She may not be 'legally' liable, but she absolutely is MORALLY liable.

quote:

I feel for the deceased family and agree diplomatic immunity laws have been abused beyond belief, but they're still in place and effect, and must be adhered to. I think it would set a horrible precedent and open the door to all kinds of unintended consequences worldwide if Trump and/or the US government were to waive immunity for this woman.

Waive the immunity and send her over to answer for her actions. Waivers are in place to deal with these situations - on a case by case basis. We generally frown on no-common-sense 'blanket policies' here; why should this be any different?

This is simply "The Right Thing To Do" - screw any possible precedent or potential future problems. . .

I think there was a case in DC about 20 years ago where a diplomat from some former Soviet republic drove drunk, hit and killed someone. I think his embassy waived his immunity for it and he went to jail. I'll try to look that one up.

Edit: Found it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com...8-8d9e-192eebee47ac/

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
Waive the immunity and send her over to answer for her actions. Waivers are in place to deal with these situations - on a case by case basis. We generally frown on no-common-sense 'blanket policies' here; why should this be any different?

This is simply "The Right Thing To Do" - screw any possible precedent or potential future problems. . .

And if immunity was waived in this case, I'd speculate we'd see a huge jump in the number of requests for immunity to be waved around the world. Immunity has its place in the scheme of things, unfortunately its been abused for decades such that 'no' country is going to waive or give it up.

This is not about right and wrong or I'd completely agree with you. This is about a much larger political picture around the world.

What is really scary to me is that if this had not been brought up by a UK forum member, then we would never know.

What in the world are you talking about?

https://www.washingtontimes.co...lve-trump-if-us-dip/

https://www.nydailynews.com/ne....html?outputType=amp

https://twitter.com/copcrusty/.../1180759898365317120

https://www.kpbs.org/news/2019...-uk-after-fatal-car/

https://nypost.com/2019/10/07/...y-us-diplomats-wife/

https://news.yahoo.com/uks-joh...urn-u-111336930.html

https://www.stripes.com/news/b...illing-teen-1.602125

All of these are US-based sources, and that's just a random sampling of the places this story is published.