I guess it all depends on your workplace and what the training is for. If your company honestly wants to make you safer, I'd ask a lot of questions. If they are just checking a box, bring something to read (discreetly). In the places I worked, for purposes of the discussion I'd have assumed that guns didn't exist and what could be done in that world to make us safer. Questions that come to mind include many asked already (how can we make security tighter, what first aid supplies and training are available, where are the secure places to shelter and how secure are they really, what are the various ways to egress and pros/cons of each.) I'd also ask about what we can do to speed LE response. Can we get LE out for a tour of the facility so that if they do need to respond, they aren't coming totally blind? Etc. If they are going to provide the training, we might as well get as much as is possible out of it.

That wouldn't preclude me from carrying (quietly) and doing what seemed best at the time if things ever did go down at work, but there is no need to discuss that in a company meeting.

quote:

Originally posted by 95flhr:
Point out that most offices, closets, bathrooms, etc.... have drywall that won't stop someone kick though, let alone stop bullets. So ask where the real hardened "Safe Space" is located.

^^^^^^^^
I understand what you are saying but I think that would ID you to management. Moreover, in the training I’ve had, they always mention that these people are moving quickly. If a door is locked and it is quiet and dark inside, they most likely will move on and ignore the room.

Edited as I can’t spell on my iPad’s keyboard.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BB61,

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
Why do you care if they paint you as a gun guy? Can they put adverse action on you for it? Or do you carry against policy (fuck policy if it’s my life and there are no magnetometers at the door).

If I said anything, I’d be questioning whether or not entrances and “safe” rooms are truly hardened. I’d ask if it’s such a priority, why can’t folks carry legally if it’s lawful? I typically sneer at victim preparation training and I’m not very polite about it. This isn’t advice, just opinion driven. If saying things outside the collective will jam you up, say nothing.

Red flag laws are a thing now. If they paint you as a gun person, all somebody has to do is complain about you and poof, no more guns.

In Washington at least, talking to strangers about guns is insane at best. Unless you're my wife and then you tell the doctor after being specifically told to lie.

We've had that "Avoid, Deny, Defend" training. Given how we're also a no guns zero-tolerance company, it's a 'check the box' bit at best. I've asked for something more substantial, but the response I get is "we lock the doors" (need key card for entry). But we're not in a high stress work environment.

But even locking the doors is a panacea. I do recall seeing one of those 'active shooter training' videos. It showed an office with a security guard next to the receptionist. Receptionist buzzes in a bicycle courier. Courier comes in with a messenger bag and a bike lock over one shoulder. Takes the lock, cracks the head of the guard, pulls a handgun and shoots the receptionist. Then takes the lock and secures the front door. Then pulls a folder from his bag. Now shooter has fish in a barrel. Wish I could find that video again. Like to show it to our security guy.

Egress.

Hide/barricade.

Fight.

That's pretty much it.

Egress:

Exit the building and rally in the designated areas and take headcount. Hope the shooter doesn't show up.

Hide/Barricade:

Cower somewhere and hope the shooter doesn't find you.

Fight:

When your only alternative is that you are about to die.

That's the training I've sat through every single time it's been presented. Sure, I wanted to suggest allowing concealed carry in the workplace, armed security and on and on. Nothing the company will consider or even wants to hear.

Keep your mouth shut. Get the check box on your training log and go back to work.

After seeing what the police did to the survivors of the San Bernardino shooting (kept them detained for well over 8-10 hours, outside, with only water provided), I came up with my own plan.

Gunshots? Bye. Get to my vehicle, leave area, go home. Text boss I'm okay and I'll return when the area has been cleared.

quote:

Originally posted by 380Swift:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
Why do you care if they paint you as a gun guy? Can they put adverse action on you for it? Or do you carry against policy (fuck policy if it’s my life and there are no magnetometers at the door).

If I said anything, I’d be questioning whether or not entrances and “safe” rooms are truly hardened. I’d ask if it’s such a priority, why can’t folks carry legally if it’s lawful? I typically sneer at victim preparation training and I’m not very polite about it. This isn’t advice, just opinion driven. If saying things outside the collective will jam you up, say nothing.

Red flag laws are a thing now. If they paint you as a gun person, all somebody has to do is complain about you and poof, no more guns.

In Washington at least, talking to strangers about guns is insane at best. Unless you're my wife and then you tell the doctor after being specifically told to lie.

I like to think that Red Flag laws will ultimately be declared unconstitutional, since they flagrantly bypass the due process instituted in the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments, and possibly the 9th. Yeah, I know--dream on. But if we get another strong constitutionalist SCOTUS Justice, it just might happen.

flashguy

Recently had probably a similar training at my employer. Signage on company property regarding “No Concealed Carry Allowed”.

I kept my mouth shut.

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Keep your mouth shut. Get the check box on your training log and go back to work.

After seeing what the police did to the survivors of the San Bernardino shooting (kept them detained for well over 8-10 hours, outside, with only water provided), I came up with my own plan.

Gunshots? Bye. Get to my vehicle, leave area, go home. Text boss I'm okay and I'll return when the area has been cleared.

This was my plan before I retired. Actually did it but not for gunshots - it was the 2011 earthquake in DC. Fuck that standing around outside shit. I went home.

My company checked the box, and that is all. They don't want to spend one dime. I guess spending a few 100k doesn't outweigh 20 or 30 lawsuits for death of loved ones. The funny thing is that the company can afford it. Go figger.

Perhaps the company can budget for the placement of buckets of rocks for self-defense purposes?

From the Wapo (a news source that's just as ridiculous as this idea). . .

This school district’s plan to stop shooters: Arming students with a bucket of rocks

As other's have said, just mind your own business at the training.

I am not sure how they got into my desk at work so its previous occupant must have inadvertently left them there, but I was happy to find a big can of pepper spray, an expandable baton and a six D-cell Maglite.

I work for a large company and there was a shooting a few years ago at another facility. It was not a random shooting but a murder-suicide where an employee shot a specific individual and then shot himself. We have card key access, electronic gates at all entrances, and guards at main entrances, but nothing can stop an employee from bringing a gun into the workplace, despite the "no guns on company property" rule.

So we got the run, hide, fight training:

Run away - unless you have to run into the path of the shooter...
Hide - under a desk, in a conference room with locked/barricaded door...
Fight - pick up a heavy object and throw it at the shooter...

We are located in what otherwise is a rather conservative midwestern area, so lots of people have carry permits and talking about guns somewhat openly with others of similar mindset is common. We also have a lot of immigrants from countries where citizen gun ownership is banned, and they may question the need/desire to own guns, until someone takes them to a range after which they usually think shooting is "cool". So there was quite a lot of eye rolling about the training when many of us could be armed but aren't allowed.

A few comments:

The training kept talking about "random" shooters bent on creating indiscriminate mayhem and shooting anyone/everyone they can. But this is simply not what experience tells me. 3 large companies I have worked for had active shooter incidents during or before I was employed, but always at a different location then where I worked. And in every case they were targeted at specific individuals and not random at all. Usually it was revenge, or relationships gone bad. One case involved a love triangle among security personnel resulting in a security guard being the shooter!

The results of these events led to key carded turnstiles and other security measures to keep people that aren't supposed to be there out. However the most recent event at my current employer resulted in no changes. The only way to prevent it would be airport metal detectors and X-rays for bags (too inconvenient), or someone identifying the guy was a potential threat before the incident. HR didn't tell us what really happened so I don't know if there were any warning signs.

The best part about the training was the local police telling us what to do if there is an active shooter:

The police are going in as soon as they arrive, no waiting for backup, no waiting to make a perimeter. They will have AR's (not specially stated but obvious) and making very fast "threat / not threat" decisions about everyone they see. Good to hear this compared to past events that were over before the police entered.

Leave the building quickly and calmly. If you encounter an officer make sure your hands are visible, up, and empty. DO NOT have a phone in your hand, DO NOT try talk to the officer and explain the situation, give directions, etc. Ensure that you are clearly "not a threat" and move on to a safe location. It is best to leave the scene, get in your car and drive home, and not hang around outside creating a crowd.

Bottom line: Gun-free zone, determined shooter violates rules and brings a gun inside, everyone else following rules is disarmed, and there is no practical way to keep guns out, except by keeping unapproved people out which doesn't stop current employees.