I will stick with my last comment.

IBTL

And now for the rest of the story. Below is the most pertinent portion of the rule. Our coach called timeout and notified the umpire of the rule after the pitcher threw 1 single pitch. A called strike that resulted in no additional action.


7.05.B.7 For purposes of pitching limitations rules, a pitcher is in violation of the rule if he records any out above the legal pitching limits pursuant to these rules.

7.05.B.8 It shall be the responsibility of each team to challenge pitching violations by notifying the Umpire and then filing a Protest with the League / Tournament Director. A protest may be filed at any point after the pitcher in violation records any out beyond his legal limit AND while the pitcher in violation is in the game as the pitcher of record. If such violation is the last recorded out of the game, the protest MUST be filed prior to the Umpires and the protesting team leaving the field of play.

Ok, I coached a number of very competitive travel ball teams over a 12 year period from 10 to 18 years old that brought home a whole bunch of trophies. Here's my Monday morning quarterback take from having been on the field doing this for many years.

One, your travel league needs to evolve and revise their pitching requirements. Innings pitched is a completely useless yard stick to use in measuring pitcher limitations. The only thing that matters is 'pitch count'. I had one 14U pitcher that was so good he could go 5 or 6 innings and barely get to 50/60 pitches. Then I had other pitchers who would throw 50 pitches in 2 innings. Per your league rules, the second pitcher in this example could throw 150 pitches (if allowed to do so), so long as he didn't pitch outside of the inning limits. That's an old stupid rule that protects no one and needs to be changed. Most Florida travel ball leagues have already made this rule change specifically with the protection of kids arms in mind.

Second, you won fair and square as you operated within the existing league rules. The other coach had no excuse to have played his starting pitcher beyond the 6th. That being said, I likely would have handled the situation a bit differently. I'd have told the opposing coach, before his pitcher faced my first batter, that my book showed his pitcher as being at the league's pitching limits. That brief conversation would have been done in the presence of the home plate umpire. If the opposing coach brushed me off and proceeded, I'd have waited until the first pitch was thrown, then called time and done as you did. If he pulled his starter, we'd have played on and my team (being what they always were) would have pounded whatever pitcher he put on the mound into dust.

I have an almost insatiable need for my players to win games on the field, not by rule interpretations or other game playing that coaches can and will pull. They need to learn to rise above the noise and nonsense, whip each other up, and leave it all on the field. A win is only important if my players learn something from achieving it. They do that by winning, or even sometimes losing, on the field, not within the rule book.

bigdeal, I could not agree more with anything you said. It's all about pitches and rest, innings pitched is meaningless. This is USSSA, the largest youth travel ball organization nationally. The oversight is completely inadequate to protect the players and it really is up to the parents to advocate for their kids.

With that said, you might have missed the little twist in my post just above yours. Our coach didn't wait until they violated the rule as written. He notified the umpire after a single called strike. Could he have done it before the pitch, sure. It was within the rules to let the game play out and only bring it up if certain defeat was looming but that would never happen, we don't roll like that. At worst, the pitcher should have been removed and perhaps an illegal pitch declared resulting in a balk and a single run given the way our coach chose to handle it. A little poke in the eye sure, game deciding....hardly.

I was not privy to the discussion that ensued between the umpire, tourney director and the regional director but based on the people skills he displayed previously in the weekend I can only guess that this coach crossed a line that led he and his team to be disqualified. Based on the complete rules as written we did not force them to forfeit the game by the timing of the protest. It seems an inch of rope was more than enough for this guy.....

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
And now for the rest of the story. Below is the most pertinent portion of the rule. Our coach called timeout and notified the umpire of the rule after the pitcher threw 1 single pitch. A called strike that resulted in no additional action.


7.05.B.7 For purposes of pitching limitations rules, a pitcher is in violation of the rule if he records any out above the legal pitching limits pursuant to these rules.

7.05.B.8 It shall be the responsibility of each team to challenge pitching violations by notifying the Umpire and then filing a Protest with the League / Tournament Director. A protest may be filed at any point after the pitcher in violation records any out beyond his legal limit AND while the pitcher in violation is in the game as the pitcher of record. If such violation is the last recorded out of the game, the protest MUST be filed prior to the Umpires and the protesting team leaving the field of play.

So the way I read that, the rule was never violated because the pitcher didn't record an out in the 7th inning. There was already an out, but not credited to the pitcher. Obviously the officials thought differently, but I don't see it.

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
bigdeal, I could not agree more with anything you said. It's all about pitches and rest, innings pitched is meaningless. This is USSSA, the largest youth travel ball organization nationally. The oversight is completely inadequate to protect the players and it really is up to the parents to advocate for their kids.

With that said, you might have missed the little twist in my post just above yours. Our coach didn't wait until they violated the rule as written. He notified the umpire after a single called strike. Could he have done it before the pitch, sure. It was within the rules to let the game play out and only bring it up if certain defeat was looming but that would never happen, we don't roll like that. At worst, the pitcher should have been removed and perhaps an illegal pitch declared resulting in a balk and a single run given the way our coach chose to handle it. A little poke in the eye sure, game deciding....hardly.

I was not privy to the discussion that ensued between the umpire, tourney director and the regional director but based on the people skills he displayed previously in the weekend I can only guess that this coach crossed a line that led he and his team to be disqualified. Based on the complete rules as written we did not force them to forfeit the game by the timing of the protest. It seems an inch of rope was more than enough for this guy.....

I don't doubt your original comment in that the other coach was likely also out of pitching at the end of the tournament, and opted to leave his last best chance of winning (his starter) in the game. Bad choice on his part.

Try this one out. I coached a 12U team at a Florida State tournament and got all the way to the championship game. The team we payed in that game showed up with two brand new faces on their roster at game time. Both kids were known to me as being 13/14 years old. My players also recognized them as being too old for our division. Rather than to invoke the rules and force a forfeit, I whipped up my kids (that was truly a great 12u team) and told them we were going to play and beat the snot out of that team. I then slipped over before the game to the opposing coach and told him if either of his 'ringers' toed the rubber, I'd force a forfeit. He got my point and we proceeded. Well every time those two kids stepped into the batters box, I passed them to first. I took the bat out of their hands, kept them off the mound, and my guys pounded that team for the championship trophy. The ego and confidence boost my guys got from that win propelled them to an absolutely epic season and a second overall at AAU 12U Nationals. Oh, and that other coach got found out by the tournament director after the fact, and was banned from coaching for a year. And no, it wasn't me who ratted him out.

Coaches really need to walk a fine line and always keep the goal(s) in close focus, that being, developing players both physically and mentally for later on, regardless what they opt to pursue, and not worrying so much about the win/lose column. That always happens on the field and never in the rule book or the trophy presentation.

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:

Oh please! You waited until the kid completed his warm ups and began pitching in the 7th inning before you alerted the coach. I highly doubt your motivation was the protection of the young arm. Otherwise you would not have waited until the kid went through additional pitches/warm ups.

Your kid's team was down 4. You waited until the rules would have guaranteed your team the win. You won. Congratulations.

His team was low on pitching and the inning starts on loaded bases. That's why you had 4 runs scored on a 3-3 tie game.

His team would have also started with loaded bases so 4 runs would not have been that hard of an ask HAD THE OTHER TEAM SWITCHED PITCHERS. The coach chose to leave in his started because that gave him the best chance to win. There's no doubt he was trying to gain an advantage.

You guys won. As someone who played baseball our coaches always knew the rules of each tourney.

Whats funny is the rules in KS highschool are no longer innings pitched by pitches. So now teams have to track thier pitch count as they will forfeit games too early. The rules now have a mandatory rest days depending on pitches thrown not including warm ups. So the ability to wreck your pitcher because endless foul balls is a new strategy. If a team is even 1 pitch off in the pitch count a forfeit will happen.

A game is defined by its rules.

They had a rule to set up the extra innings, and followed it to put the runners on base, etc. Why shouldn't they enforce the other rules?

You are not required to educate the other team on the rules. They should know them.

Their coach is the one who broke the rule, and he is the one who gets to explain to the kids and the parents.

The other team's parents have no legitimate gripe with your team's coach or the officials. Their ire should be directed at their own coach.

And here is the final chapter, I just learned this morning in a text from our coach. This team also went into extra innings in their semi final game. They threw their starter for that game in the 7th inning also. They had already violated the rules and should have been tossed out of the tourney in the semi finals. This may have been what got them tossed from our game as the regional director would have had access to the pitching report for the tournament as the data is collected and turned in for each game on the umpire official scorecard.

Worse yet, would have been if they won the game and then had to forfeit.

Anyhow, I've seen what coaches try to get away with in little league and as everyone has said.

Rules are rules, we all play by them.

Good lesson learned.

quote:

Originally posted by Dallas239:

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
And now for the rest of the story. Below is the most pertinent portion of the rule. Our coach called timeout and notified the umpire of the rule after the pitcher threw 1 single pitch. A called strike that resulted in no additional action.


7.05.B.7 For purposes of pitching limitations rules, a pitcher is in violation of the rule if he records any out above the legal pitching limits pursuant to these rules.

7.05.B.8 It shall be the responsibility of each team to challenge pitching violations by notifying the Umpire and then filing a Protest with the League / Tournament Director. A protest may be filed at any point after the pitcher in violation records any out beyond his legal limit AND while the pitcher in violation is in the game as the pitcher of record. If such violation is the last recorded out of the game, the protest MUST be filed prior to the Umpires and the protesting team leaving the field of play.

So the way I read that, the rule was never violated because the pitcher didn't record an out in the 7th inning. There was already an out, but not credited to the pitcher. Obviously the officials thought differently, but I don't see it.

You are correct but after much dust and thunder the game was called and the other team was disqualified. Until this morning I assumed that the coach of the other team must have done himself in by his reaction. As it turns out, they had violated this rule in their previous game as well, info the director would have access to online when he was called from the field during our protest.

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
And here is the final chapter, I just learned this morning in a text from our coach. This team also went into extra innings in their semi final game. They threw their starter for that game in the 7th inning also.

I wonder if the lady who threw the punch at the coach after that game could have been the pitcher's mom, mad about abusing her son's arm?

I think it's a game played by 10 year olds, so it's nothing to get wound up about.

I coached high school ball in the 90's. We kept track of the pitch count for ours and theirs. Their coach new exactly what he was doing, and hoped no one was paying attention. I have no compunction to point out to the other coach I am in on his game.

To those that say he only pitched one pitch and not an out. The inning started with one out, so by throwing a pitch at all he has 'pitched an out'.

I agree, it should be about pitch count and not innings pitched. They really should get that changed.

Sounds like the rule was applied without malice or stretched interpretation to give a desired result. As other contributors said, these rules are put in place for the health of the young athletes and protect them from coaches who are "win at all costs".

It sounds like the coach has some explaining to do to the parents an admit his mistake in allowing the child to pitch the extra innings.

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
This may have been what got them tossed from our game as the regional director would have had access to the pitching report for the tournament as the data is collected and turned in for each game on the umpire official scorecard.

And therein lies one of my biggest gripes with USSSA (and other sanctioning groups). As coaches, we have to fight tooth and nail a lot of times for the documented rules to be followed. Fighting with tournament directors will make you as a coach look bad with many and brand you a troublemaker with the league if it happens too much, while you're only trying to insure the directors do as they should normally. I found that part of coaching a real drag.

And for those saying the opposing teams parents should have been angry with their coach over this debacle, I've had parents scream at me after a game because I pulled their kid off the mound at a set pitch count, and didn't allow him to finish. Many of today's parents get so wrapped up in the competition they forget about the reality that these are only kids with built in limitations at their age. Don't ever count on the parents to make reasonable decisions about their kids and the teams they play on. That has to rest with coaches, and unfortunately they aren't always driven by the correct motivations either.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
This may have been what got them tossed from our game as the regional director would have had access to the pitching report for the tournament as the data is collected and turned in for each game on the umpire official scorecard.

And therein lies one of my biggest gripes with USSSA (and other sanctioning groups). As coaches, we have to fight tooth and nail a lot of times for the documented rules to be followed. Fighting with tournament directors will make you as a coach look bad with many and brand you a troublemaker with the league if it happens too much, while you're only trying to insure the directors do as they should normally. I found that part of coaching a real drag.

And for those saying the opposing teams parents should have been angry with their coach over this debacle, I've had parents scream at me after a game because I pulled their kid off the mound at a set pitch count, and didn't allow him to finish. Many of today's parents get so wrapped up in the competition they forget about the reality that these are only kids with built in limitations at their age. Don't ever count on the parents to make reasonable decisions about their kids and the teams they play on. That has to rest with coaches, and they too aren't always driven by the correct motivations either.

Actually, in this case anyone can see the pitching report. It is a live document that gets updated as each game's score is reported. After the coach pointed it out this morning I pulled up the online scores, went to the pitching report tab and sure enough for their semifinal game it list a kid having pitched 7 innings.

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:
Well, you didn't cheat.

I think, though, decent thing to do would have been to alert the other team about the pitching rule.

We're talking about 10 year old kids, right?

We are talking about 10 year old kids. There are rules in place to protect their arms so unscrupulous coaches and apathetic parents don't hurt them. Do you think they all know the pitching limits now? Will that likely benefit every kid on that team who pitches down the road?

Oh please! You waited until the kid completed his warm ups and began pitching in the 7th inning before you alerted the coach. I highly doubt your motivation was the protection of the young arm. Otherwise you would not have waited until the kid went through additional pitches/warm ups.

Your kid's team was down 4. You waited until the rules would have guaranteed your team the win. You won. Congratulations.

As well as he should have. Rules are there, obey them. That was not a mistake by the other coach, Every sanctioning body there is has a 6 inning limit for pitchers.

We won a USSSA world series last year because the team we were playing in the finals had the wrong inning counts on kids.

Protested, they were DQ'd. Not our intent, but we had a right to know the inning count on their pitchers. They, like us, were required to have proper documentation.

100% of this falls at the feet of the other coach.
This isnt rec ball, its travel tournament ball, the boys will get over it. The parents, not so much.