My son plays on a very competitive 10 year old travel baseball team. This weekend we traveled to Houston to play in a tournament there. We went 2 and 0 Saturday and we were the #1 seed going into Sunday's bracket play. We won the semi final game 3 to 2 today sending us to the Championship game.

The championship was a hard fought game that was tied 3 to 3 at the end of the 6th inning of regulation play. We were the home team. The sanctioning body for the tourney has extra innings rules where the visiting team starts the inning with 3 runners on base and 1 out. The half inning is played out until the next two outs are recorded. The bottom of the inning is set up the same way for the home team.

Being the home team we took the field first. It was late in the tournament obviously and we were running low on pitching. We put the best kid we had on the mound that hadn't thrown yet. We gave up 4 runs.

The other team took the field and their pitcher who had started and pitched the entire 6 innings of regulation took the mound. I have two boys that both pitch so I have done a lot of research on arm care, including knowing the rules that apply. While the kid was warming up I informed our coach of the rule. The inning started, the kid pitched. The coach called a time out and informed the umpire of the rules violation. The coaches and umpires hudled, the tournament official was called over, the sanctioning body regional director was called on the phone. In the end the ruling was applied according to the written rules here:



7.05.C.2 ONE DAY MAXIMUM: The maximum number of innings a player can legally pitch in one (1) day. In the 7U – 12U age divisions, a player may legally pitch a maximum of six (6) innings in one (1) day.

Penalty: Any violation shall result in immediate forfeiture of the game.


Well, as you can imagine all hell broke lose in their parent section. Their coach was not so fired up as the parents. He either knew he was breaking the rules or was blissfully ignorant and otherwise out of pitching like us.

Seems most of their parents thought our team cheated them somehow. What say you Sig Forum?

That rule is there for a reason and they broke it. I'm sure everyone would've loved to have seen the game play out but rules are rules.

They cheated, they got caught, and had the rare event of facing consequences.

Feel bad for the kids as it's 100% on the other team's coaches.

Well, you didn't cheat.

I think, though, decent thing to do would have been to alert the other team about the pitching rule.

We're talking about 10 year old kids, right?

The health of that kid's arm is FAR more important thank any trophy. I do agree that perhaps the kid should have simply been taken off the mound and the game resumed; but that isn't what the rule reads now is it?

As you wrote it. Seem's legit. Rules are the rules. Rules applied. Sore losers, which is not surprising. Next!

As a coach for youth sports, there is no excuse if you don't know the rules. I bet the other coach did and thought he'd get away with it.

Another example of the adults ruining youth sports...

A rule is a rule. But I'd never let my son pitch 6 innings in 1 game. What was the pitch count? We limit our boys (9u) to 50 pitches.

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:
Well, you didn't cheat.

I think, though, decent thing to do would have been to alert the other team about the pitching rule.

We're talking about 10 year old kids, right?

We are talking about 10 year old kids. There are rules in place to protect their arms so unscrupulous coaches and apathetic parents don't hurt them. Do you think they all know the pitching limits now? Will that likely benefit every kid on that team who pitches down the road?

Play by the rules of course. Ignorant sh-ts if they think they are above them!! My 2 cents, if it's worth anything.

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:
Well, you didn't cheat.

I think, though, decent thing to do would have been to alert the other team about the pitching rule.

We're talking about 10 year old kids, right?

We are talking about 10 year old kids. There are rules in place to protect their arms so unscrupulous coaches and apathetic parents don't hurt them. Do you think they all know the pitching limits now? Will that likely benefit every kid on that team who pitches down the road?

Oh please! You waited until the kid completed his warm ups and began pitching in the 7th inning before you alerted the coach. I highly doubt your motivation was the protection of the young arm. Otherwise you would not have waited until the kid went through additional pitches/warm ups.

Your kid's team was down 4. You waited until the rules would have guaranteed your team the win. You won. Congratulations.

Regardless of who won you did the opposing pitcher a favor. So much damage can be done by foolishness like that.

Take it the violation occurred at the pitch.
To quote Napoleon, "Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake.” The coach had no reason to object before the violation.
No doubt the parents complaint is that a warning "should have" been given before the violation. At this, the reply is that the coach is required to know the rules and protect his players. As for the parents, TEXJIM is an example of due diligence. He is protecting his son by knowing the rules. The father of the other team's pitcher could have done the same job. My question is did the father know of the rule? If he did, then he created the violation.

I have a 10 U travel ball player and he pitches. I'd take the lose over one championship win. The opposing coach and pitchers parents are short sighted. 55-60 pitches our kids are done for three days.

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:
Well, you didn't cheat.

I think, though, decent thing to do would have been to alert the other team about the pitching rule.

We're talking about 10 year old kids, right?

We are talking about 10 year old kids. There are rules in place to protect their arms so unscrupulous coaches and apathetic parents don't hurt them. Do you think they all know the pitching limits now? Will that likely benefit every kid on that team who pitches down the road?

Oh please! You waited until the kid completed his warm ups and began pitching in the 7th inning before you alerted the coach. I highly doubt your motivation was the protection of the young arm. Otherwise you would not have waited until the kid went through additional pitches/warm ups.

Your kid's team was down 4. You waited until the rules would have guaranteed your team the win. You won. Congratulations.

I started this thread because I knew there would be a range of opinions. You don't know me, so don't make assumptions about what motivates me. We win some, we lose some and learn a lot of life lessons along the way. I manage my own kids pitch counts because I care about them and want to protect them. I can't understand parents that don't do their own research and set their own limits. I get angry when I see a coach abusing a 10 year old kid.

With that said, I wasn't on the field and I didn't have any part in the decision on when and how to inform the other team. I simply informed our coach of the rules when I saw the kid take the mound. I also support the way the coach handled it simply because of what I saw from this team as lead by their coaches all weekend. Had they been good guys doing things the right way then they would have probably gothen a heads up as you suggest. The other actions we saw from this group through the weekend makes it seem very likely that knew exactly what they were doing and didn't care about the rules or their kids.


You sound just like their parents though. Nevermind that these coaches probably abuse what was surely their ace pitcher week in and week out. It's our fault for pointing out their cheating

For background, I'll respond to this post as a hockey coach with 17 years experience coaching from Youth through Collegiate. My response will include things that no one wants to hear, but history proves as true.

I'll start by reminding people that these are 10 year old kids. Granted, winning is an important part of the experience, and championships are great, but that is not the ultimate goal of youth sports. The ultimate goal is for kids to learn the sport & age appropriate game skills, develop a love for the game, establish good sportsmanship and competitive habits, and most importantly have fun. Look at any youth championship team and in 2-3 years, the kids will be on different teams, most of the "All Stars" will be average, and a given % won't even be playing the sport any more. The only constant is the parents that believe the next win is their child's ticket to the big leagues and comfy retirement.

Outside of the basic rules of the game, most of the rules in youth sports exist to protect the players, and at times the coaches. Follow the rules, you'll probably be ok. Push the rules and you risk the consequences. Unfortunately it may be one of your players that suffers on your behalf. Keep that in mind and if you're a decent person you'll stay on track. If this doesn't phase you, find another hobby.

To be blunt, most coaches in youth sports are not expert coaches. Let me repeat that, they are NOT expert coaches. They range from the reluctant volunteer, Coach Dad, to guys with some experience that may have recycled once or twice. Most of them do the best they can and really have the kids best interest at heart, but still make mistakes. Some are just their to get their or friends kids top spot. Some are egomaniacs that have no business coaching. Some are just good at grabbing great players. The flaws in a coach, much like those in players are exposed under intense pressure. It's all part of the learning experience.

With regard to the specific incident. One could look at your coach and say that he was brilliant by waiting for the pitcher to throw the first ball and thus catch the opposing team in a forfeit violation. One could also look at this situation and say that the coach should have, in the interests of sportsmanship, have notified the officials during warm ups and thus preventing the kid in question from throwing any more pitches and avoid the forfeit situation. I don't know what the dynamic was between the teams, between the officials & teams, or in your dugout or the timing of the notification to the coach and the start of the inning. All said, I will give my opinion.

OPINION: In this case, in a Championship game, it is the officials responsibility to assure that all rules are followed. In hockey in this format, there would be officials keeping stats and thus would know immediately when the player in question began warming up that they had a violation on their hands. Although timing may be in question, rules are rules. The coach acted appropriately in the best interest of the opposing pitcher by notifying the officials of the violation. The opposing coach either knew of the rule and was intentionally violating to win, or he was completely ignorant of the rule and it was a simple mistake. Ultimately it was the officials decision as to how to deal with the situation. I will guess that the official/coaches huddle yielded the answer and the decision was rendered. The involvement of the Regional Director further indicates this was a decision not made lightly. Celebrate the win, but use this as a teaching tool about sportsmanship and how to properly approach the game with integrity and honor.

Nicely stated RW. I think we can determine what happened, why it happened and when it happened here. Whether it was handled correctly is strictly opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:

quote:

Originally posted by Windhover:
Well, you didn't cheat.

I think, though, decent thing to do would have been to alert the other team about the pitching rule.

We're talking about 10 year old kids, right?

We are talking about 10 year old kids. There are rules in place to protect their arms so unscrupulous coaches and apathetic parents don't hurt them. Do you think they all know the pitching limits now? Will that likely benefit every kid on that team who pitches down the road?

Oh please! You waited until the kid completed his warm ups and began pitching in the 7th inning before you alerted the coach. I highly doubt your motivation was the protection of the young arm. Otherwise you would not have waited until the kid went through additional pitches/warm ups.

Your kid's team was down 4. You waited until the rules would have guaranteed your team the win. You won. Congratulations.

The way I read it, Jim informed the coach of the rule when the kid took the mound, and the coach chose to wait, or maybe that's just how the timing worked.

Anyway, deliberately waiting to "catch" the other team violating the rule isn't wrong, but I do think it's not great sportsmanship. So if that is what happened, I can understand the other parents being upset. It's still their coaches fault though that the team lost, and that seems to be the mandated outcome. If my kid was on Jim's kid's team, I'd also be less than happy, not that the team won, but at the missed opportunity for the coach to show that sportsmanship is more important than winning.

As to the defense that the opposing coach didn't know the rule and should have, it seems, based on the story given, that Jim's coach wasn't necessarily aware of the rule, nor the umpires or the tourney official, since none of them called the game on their own. Is this perhaps a rule that's not commonly enforced?

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
.....The opposing coach either knew of the rule and was intentionally violating to win, or he was completely ignorant of the rule and it was a simple mistake.....

I'm going to shorten all you wrote. The other team screwed up either out of malice or ignorance. It does not change the facts. They lost.

Since the discussion is well under way and opinions have been rendered I will now add a little flavor to the discussion. We have never played this team before and have no history with them. When we arrived for our first game Saturday they were just wrapping up their first game. They left the field and hudled about 100 feet from where our kids were warming up. There seemed to be some heated conversation amongst the coaches and a parent or two. As things got heated they had to be separated and were screaming profanities at each other. At this point a punch was thrown, a mom took a swing at one of the coaches This all played out in a common area right in front of our team, theirs and a couple of others using the warm up area. Despite the stereotype of youth sports with these kind of episodes this is the first time I have seen anything like this happen in the 3 years we have been doing tourney baseball. We also participate in other youth sports and have for several years, this was the worst thing I have seen by far.


Fast forward to today. During the game while they were batting the coach repeatedly encouraged his kids in the dugout to "make some noise" which consisted of all 10 players in the dugout chanting Ball! Ball! Ball! Ball! with increasing volume as our pitchers went through their motion culminating with all of them screaming WALK! at the the top of their lungs as our pitchers released the ball.

To put it nicely, these coaches were shit heads. They had no concern for sportsmanship and they were teaching their kids everything that is wrong with youth sports. They got a good dose of karma and the coach acted like he got caught, not caught off guard. I feel bad for those kids and hope some of those parents are smart enough to get their kids out of that environment.