SIGforum
If our government were not corrupt, would it still function?
September 29, 2017, 08:50 AM
rduckworIf our government were not corrupt, would it still function?
A serious question, not a general bitch.
Consider the lobbyists, the back room deals, the "quid pro quo" situations which generate "pork".
The question is: Does corruption drive the function of our government?
Could/would this government function without all of the outside/inside/under-the-table deals?
RMD
TL Davis: “The Second Amendment is special, not because it protects guns, but because its violation signals a government with the intention to oppress its people…”
Remember: After the first one, the rest are free.
September 29, 2017, 08:52 AM
JALLENThat's such an ugly word.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown September 29, 2017, 08:54 AM
arfmelWait-you're saying our government is
corrupt ?!?
September 29, 2017, 08:59 AM
rduckworquote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
That's such an ugly word.
How then would you choose to describe it? Seriously. Business as usual?
Honestly, I really would like to know what you perceive our government would look like IF we could achieve a strictly honest governing system. I realize that it is a theoretical question, but its interesting to ponder.
RMD
TL Davis: “The Second Amendment is special, not because it protects guns, but because its violation signals a government with the intention to oppress its people…”
Remember: After the first one, the rest are free.
September 29, 2017, 09:05 AM
FenrisThe question is so theoretical as to be meaningless.
God Bless and Protect our Beloved President, Donald John Trump. September 29, 2017, 09:38 AM
JALLENquote:
Originally posted by rduckwor:
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
That's such an ugly word.
How then would you choose to describe it? Seriously. Business as usual?
Honestly, I really would like to know what you perceive our government would look like IF we could achieve a strictly honest governing system. I realize that it is a theoretical question, but its interesting to ponder.
RMD
As far as I can tell, having read multiple histories of mankind covering many thousands of years, there is no such thing as a strictly honest governing system.
Any system involving economic rewards can be gamed, and will be, if history is any guide.
One difficulty is in deciding what is "honest" and what isn't. The thoroughly dishonest stuff is easy to agree on, and the strictly honest, but the middle gray area can be murky.
One man's exception is another man's loophole.
A lot of that is cultural. Some cultures are less inclined towards financial shenanigans.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown September 29, 2017, 09:45 AM
JimineerDoes corrupt include illegal?
September 29, 2017, 09:52 AM
JALLENquote:
Originally posted by Jimineer:
Does corrupt include illegal?
I believe it does.
quote:
cor·rupt
kəˈrəpt/Submit
adjective
1.
having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"unscrupulous logging companies assisted by corrupt officials"
synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, dishonorable, unprincipled, unethical, amoral, untrustworthy, venal, underhanded, double-dealing, fraudulent, bribable, criminal, illegal, unlawful, nefarious; More
2.
(of a text or a computer database or program) made unreliable by errors or alterations.
verb
1.
cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"
2.
change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.
"Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"
synonyms: alter, tamper with, interfere with, bastardize, debase, adulterate
"the apostolic writings had been corrupted"
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown September 29, 2017, 09:54 AM
oddballquote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
As far as I can tell, having read multiple histories of mankind covering many thousands of years, there is no such thing as a strictly honest governing system.
A corrupt political system became one of the downfalls of Rome. I dare say that corruption is an inherent part of government, there is no getting around it. Like death and taxes, corruption in a government system is a guarantee.
"I’m not going to read Time Magazine, I’m not going to read Newsweek, I’m not going to read any of these magazines; I mean, because they have too much to lose by printing the truth"- Bob Dylan, 1965
September 29, 2017, 10:04 AM
JALLENI have long regarded the workers comp system in Whackyland as the epitome of a corrupted system, so when I saw Charles Munger's comments some years ago, I took note.
quote:
Anyway, as the Medicare example showed, all human systems are gamed, for reasons rooted deeply in psychology, and great skill is displayed in the gaming because game theory has so much potential. That’s what’s wrong with the workman’s comp system in California. Gaming has been raised to an art form. In the course of gaming the system, people learn to be crooked. Is this good for civilization? Is it good for economic performance? Hell no. The people who design easily–gameable systems belong in the lowest circle of hell.
I’ve got a friend whose family controls about 8% of the truck trailer market. He just closed his last factory in California and he had one in Texas that was even worse. The workman’s comp cost in his Texas plant got to be about 30% of payroll. Well, there’s no such profit in making truck trailers. He closed his plant and moved it to Ogden, Utah, where a bunch of believing Mormons are raising big families and don’t game the workman’s comp system. The workman’s comp expense is 2% of payroll.
Are the Latinos who were peopling his plant in Texas intrinsically dishonest or bad compared to the Mormons? No. It’s just the incentive structure that so rewards all this fraud is put in place by these ignorant legislatures, many members of which have been to law school, and they just don’t think about what terrible things they’re doing to the civilization because they don’t take into account the second order effects and the third order effects in lying and cheating. So, this happens everywhere, and when economics is full of it, it is just like the rest of life.
From a speech Munger made in 2003
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown September 29, 2017, 10:07 AM
220-9erCrony capitalism? Say it ain't so.
___________________________
Avoid buying ChiCom/CCP products whenever possible.
September 29, 2017, 10:11 AM
blueyeMan was born with the greed gene. If it is dominant then he either becomes a politician or a used car salesman.
September 29, 2017, 10:47 AM
46and2It would work just fine without a great deal of it, we'd be just fine without a great deal of pork, and we'd be just fine without professional politicians of any sort. Try it, you'll see.
We'll probably never know what that looks and feels like, primarily because the very fucks who'd need to implement the changes are too busy doing that very bullshit to bother.
But in the same way the world would be fine - nee, better even - without cancer, illness, scams, waste, theft, and otherwise - we'd most certainly be better off with honest gov't.
What it would like look is more analogous to honorable military service by short timers, in for four years, nose to the grindstone, honor above all, meager pay, for love of country.
They'd leave home, go do their government job and do great work, sleep in shitty little dorms, work 18+hrs a day, wear plain old uniforms, and go home in 4yrs tired and proud.
As it is, it's a perverted shit show full of vile "professionals". Our needs, the country's needs, what's actually right and wrong, those things are way down their list of priorities.
It's like some twisted alternate universe run by televangelists-on-crack, hundreds of Creflo A Dollars wannabes running around trying to fleece the world 23hrs per day, minimum.
And we just sit here and watch, like its all supposed to be that way, like it's just some TV show we barely have time for, meanwhile - the inmates are running the asylum, believe it.
September 29, 2017, 10:59 AM
chellim1quote:
Originally posted by blueye:
Man was born with the greed gene. If it is dominant then he either becomes a politician or a used car salesman.
Ya, and I was born with a built-in bullshit detector.
If I come across a used car salesman, with a deal to good to be true, I can have my mechanic check out the car and/or just walk away from the deal.
But in politics, though I do have the option not to vote for the candidate when my bullshit detector goes off, I'm still stuck with the results of what other people vote for if I'm in the minority.
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown
"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor September 29, 2017, 11:06 AM
rduckworThanks for all the comments.
I too believe that any system this large and complex is rife with "gaming" some necessary; a great deal unnecessary and probably illegal.
It bothers me that we don't do more to root out those who are truly crooked. Possibly that is because they are all crooked to some extent.
Thank you all for considering the question.
RMD
TL Davis: “The Second Amendment is special, not because it protects guns, but because its violation signals a government with the intention to oppress its people…”
Remember: After the first one, the rest are free.
September 29, 2017, 11:24 AM
46and2quote:
Originally posted by rduckwor:
I too believe that any system this large and complex is rife with "gaming" some necessary; a great deal unnecessary and probably illegal.
It bothers me that we don't do more to root out those who are truly crooked. Possibly that is because they are all crooked to some extent.
I think a great many Americans feel this way, understandably and justifiably so.
But at this pace, in this level of complexity, there's just about always something that's more pressing, more demanding of our attention now, and thus it's never dealt with, except the few outrageous examples that rise to the top. We've grown too big, too fast, and far too many things are left behind in varying states of corruption, inefficiency, and disarray.
Corruption? Ain't nobody got time for that. China... Russia... Alt-Whatevers... Football...
September 29, 2017, 11:41 AM
RNshooterquote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
It would work just fine without a great deal of it, we'd be just fine without a great deal of pork, and we'd be just fine without professional politicians of any sort. Try it, you'll see.
We'll probably never know what that looks and feels like, primarily because the very fucks who'd need to implement the changes are too busy doing that very bullshit to bother.
But in the same way the world would be fine - nee, better even - without cancer, illness, scams, waste, theft, and otherwise - we'd most certainly be better off with honest gov't.
What it would like look is more analogous to honorable military service by short timers, in for four years, nose to the grindstone, honor above all, meager pay, for love of country.
They'd leave home, go do their government job and do great work, sleep in shitty little dorms, work 18+hrs a day, wear plain old uniforms, and go home in 4yrs tired and proud.
As it is, it's a perverted shit show full of vile "professionals". Our needs, the country's needs, what's actually right and wrong, those things are way down their list of priorities.
It's like some twisted alternate universe run by televangelists-on-crack, hundreds of Creflo A Dollars wannabes running around trying to fleece the world 23hrs per day, minimum.
And we just sit here and watch, like its all supposed to be that way, like it's just some TV show we barely have time for, meanwhile - the inmates are running the asylum, believe it.
Damn, that is well written. I'm going to go read it again
Bruce
"The designer of the gun had clearly not been instructed to beat about the bush. 'Make it evil,' he'd been told. 'Make it totally clear that this gun has a right end and a wrong end. Make it totally clear to anyone standing at the wrong end that things are going badly for them. If that means sticking all sort of spikes and prongs and blackened bits all over it then so be it. This is not a gun for hanging over the fireplace or sticking in the umbrella stand, it is a gun for going out and making people miserable with." -Douglas Adams
“It is just as difficult and dangerous to try to free a people that wants to remain servile as it is to try to enslave a people that wants to remain free."
-Niccolo Machiavelli
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. -Mencken
September 29, 2017, 11:55 AM
StramboIt isn't corrupt or not corrupt. It is a scale from least corrupt to most corrupt. I think the US has one of the least corrupt systems, at least based on what I've seen overseas. The corruption there is crippling.
Anyway, I certainly think it's possible to come close to a corruption free system. You just have to design policies and programs with human nature in mind. Everyone is going to work towards their self-interest. So, you make the system encourage that and have working against they system be difficult. Our current way is design a procedure that sounds good on the surface and pass laws to try and punish people who bend the rules or game the system.
A quick example, food stamps. People naturally want freedom to buy whatever goods they want, not be constrained to certain items. So, they game the system to get booze, cigs, whatever with the stamps through various fraud schemes.
How about this; Govt. recognize people are going to find a way to buy what they want so stop trying to nanny them. If a person is at an income level to qualify for "food assistance", then just mail them a check or, better yet, electronically xfer the funds to their account. This will eliminate 100% of the fraud (and enforcement costs), probably 75% of the admin costs and the recipients will have more funds to help them by not having to get 50c on the dollar for the stamps.
Adults are going to buy whatever food and other items they want no matter, so if we are providing assistance, just provide it at whatever level they qualify for and let them sort it out.
“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik
Be harder to kill:
https://preparefit.ck.page September 29, 2017, 12:04 PM
JALLENquote:
Originally posted by Strambo:
Adults are going to buy whatever food and other items they want no matter, so if we are providing assistance, just provide it at whatever level they qualify for and let them sort it out.
And have your opponent in the next election claim you favored using government largess to buy drugs?
Recognizing what I quoted Munger as saying, that any system can be gamed, what is the best way to deliver help without being exposed to unsavory societal taboos?
We could improve the educational system enormously by allowing government money to go to parochial schools, which by and large are doing a much better job than public schools, but the horror of government aid to religion precludes it.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown September 29, 2017, 12:20 PM
Stramboquote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
quote:
Originally posted by Strambo:
Adults are going to buy whatever food and other items they want no matter, so if we are providing assistance, just provide it at whatever level they qualify for and let them sort it out.
And have your opponent in the next election claim you favored using government largess to buy drugs?
Recognizing what I quoted Munger as saying, that any system can be gamed, what is the best way to deliver help without being exposed to unsavory societal taboos?
We could improve the educational system enormously by allowing government money to go to parochial schools, which by and large are doing a much better job than public schools, but the horror of government aid to religion precludes it.
The answer is to make the better case, to plead your side instead of giving in. Conservatives have always had the better arguments with facts and a history of success...but totally suck at messaging.
Take a page from the liberals, make an emotional appeal showing all of pain, misery, drug addiction, fraud and corruption, then present the common-sense cost-saving solution that provides more resources to those in need. In response to criticism, for every time they say it will be used for drugs, point out that it already is now (and cost a fortune to administer, none of that admin/enforcement $ going to those in need), then give an example of a life saving or critical item a young mother could buy that is prohibited by the current system. Again, combine emotional appeals with facts and logic (something the idiot Repubs rarely do) and out-politic them.
This is basically what Trump did to win. Straight talk, emotional appeals, combined with common-sense logic and facts.
“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik
Be harder to kill:
https://preparefit.ck.page