June 22, 1941 was when Hitler opened up the Eastern Front with Operation Barbarossa, a dawn assault on the USSR, his ally since the 1939 Non-Aggression Pact.

Up to then, the Nazis had been pretty much on a roll. Barbarossa was supposed to be over so quickly, they didn't bother issuing cold-weather gear to their troops or stockpiling winter lube for their vehicles.

After about 4 years and well over 10 million soldiers and civilians casualties counting both sides, the road led to Leningrad, Kiev, Moscow, Stalingrad and Kursk, and then finally on to Berlin, and the Elbe.

One of my customers was a German Army vet on the eastern front. He told me that a factor in why he survived was he was one of the youngest ones in his unit. The older ones mostly died of exposure and cold. No cold weather gear, little food and it got worse as it went.

And we should thank God Hitler was such a fool.

If he'd have finished off Great Britain before taking on the Soviets, the war would have ended far differently.

If Hitler had finished off the Soviet army before he finished off the Wermacht he would have won the war.

I think the vitamins and amphetimines that Hitler's doctor dosed him with did much to help the Allies. So many absurd decisions and orders against reasonable retreats and saving of soldiers' lives.

Considering that the Bolsheviks conceded a very favorable peace to the Kaiser. And the Russian Civil War. And Ukrainian nationalism. And the purges. The project to colonize the Slavs had prospects for success. Thank God Barbarossa failed.

It's been noted that Hitler could have reached the caucasian oil fields by going through Turkey. That would have avoid war with Russia, if only for a brief time. While there were political and Resource reasons not to attack Turkey, it's interesting to wonder how the war would have been changed.

If he had stayed aligned with the Soviets through December 1941 and they all declared war on us and our allies after Pearl harbor, then what?
Without a doubt, the best thing that happened to our side in the war.

Watched a show last night about the amphetamines business. The whole army and much of the public left at home were all using pervatin(e) tablets - crystal meth.

Apparently it made them brave at first, but weeks or months later they were paranoid and shooting at ghosts. It may not have mattered what order they conquered or fought nations in - if they were all about to crash from meth addiction, things weren't going to end well no matter what.

Also did say Hitler would be down in a funk and get a shot of liquid meth and suddenly start making decisions (for better or worse)...

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
And we should thank God Hitler was such a fool.

.

Everything I have read reinforces this...

They had such good motivation, esprit, talent, professionalism, tactics, industrial capacity, etc.

If they had a halfway sane supreme leader we'd probably all be speaking German now.

---------------------------------------

Eighty years ago today.

The best thing that happened to the Allies in the entire war.
This poor decision cost him millions of men and lots of equipment. This also took a huge amount of manpower and other resources from the Soviets that they didn't have once the war ended to keep going west.
All in all, a positive for the rest of the world.

Our DBA was raised in Russia (Moscow) and she still considers Germans as sub human. Wow, the messed up stuff that both sides do in a war have very long lasting effects

EDIT: Her parents were raised in Moscow. Sorry 'bout that.

I'm a military history nut and I study Barbarossa all the time. YouTube is a treasure trove of documentaries.

If Hitler had started Barbarossa earlier in the spring, and not sent Army Group Center to bail out Army Group South, Moscow could likely have been taken, or at least placed under siege like Leningrad.

I watched an interview with some former German and Russian soldiers. It was very telling. The Germans complimented the Russian soldiers and referred to them as very hardy and robust soldiers, worthy of great respect.

The Russian soldiers referred to them as, "German devils."

The difference couldn't be more stark. The Wehrmacht got humbled in that terrible war.

quote:

Originally posted by jbourneidentity:
If Hitler had started Barbarossa earlier in the spring, and not sent Army Group Center to bail out Army Group South, Moscow could likely have been taken, or at least placed under siege like Leningrad.

This timing is mentioned in Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich as being critical. A couple of weeks difference and history could have been different.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by jbourneidentity:
If Hitler had started Barbarossa earlier in the spring, and not sent Army Group Center to bail out Army Group South, Moscow could likely have been taken, or at least placed under siege like Leningrad.

This timing is mentioned in Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich as being critical. A couple of weeks difference and history could have been different.

Thank you, Para. I've not read that book yet, but I'll check it out.

Another good one is "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer. It really reiterates what JALLEN posted above about the cold, lack of food, and Red Army artillery.

Be warned- it's over a thousand pages. Please check your email.

Shirer's book cannot be overstated. It's the definitive history of Third Reich. What an amazing career that man had.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Be warned- it's over a thousand pages. Please check your email.

GOT IT!! THANK YOU!! Very generous! I begin tonight!

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by jbourneidentity:
If Hitler had started Barbarossa earlier in the spring, and not sent Army Group Center to bail out Army Group South, Moscow could likely have been taken, or at least placed under siege like Leningrad.

This timing is mentioned in Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich as being critical. A couple of weeks difference and history could have been different.

Check out Tic on Youtube. https://youtu.be/kVo5I0xNRhg

He has posted some very compelling videos with theories partly based on "The Vampire Economy".

https://www.goodreads.com/book...-the-vampire-economy

Tic believes oil is why Germany lost WW2. Napoleon took Moscow but still lost the war. He has stated there is very little evidence the Soviets would have not fought on had they lost their capital. Hitler's hand was forced in 1941 because his economy was crumbling and his war machine would grind to a halt without oil. There were indications the Soviets planned on attacking Germany anyway and that would have severed their oil lifeline so why not attack now while you have the advantage. Bailing out the Italians in Greece made very little difference as the decision to not press on to the Caucuses ultimately lost the war and they had the time necessary even several weeks behind schedule. Hitler actually initially made the right decision to press south but was persuaded to change his mind by the OKW which led to a disjointed multifaceted effort across a vast front. Fascinating take on WW2 history and well researched.

Been a long time since I read Rise and Fall, but I always thought it was weird quirk of history that Hitler's grandfather had changed his name from Schickelgruber to claim an inheritance. Shirer made some comment to the effect that "Heil Schickelgruber" just wouldn't have had the same ring to it and it's questionable as to whether Hitler would have gone so far in politics with that name.

Sigh.

Once again, I open a resurrected thread, and come across a post from our late companion and brother JAllen.
Every time, it throws me for just a moment.

I really miss that guy.