My Son is in the Army NG. He told me he wants to practice before his upcoming (in a few months) qualifications. He specifically wants to practice using iron sights as he struggled using them the last time he qualified.
I'm hoping I can put together equipment that is comparable to what he will actually shoot in qualifications practice.

Anybody know what the NG uses now as far as firearms or sights for qualifications?

My son is in the Army and a firearms instructor.
He said he run qualifications with the M17/M18
with factory sights.

This may sound odd, but do you know if it was/were pistol and/or rifle? Optical sights in the military are much more common on rifles, so I would assume he was having problems with the irons on a rifle.

I have known shooters who were new to the AR/M4 type post and aperture sights to not understand what the proper sight alignment and sight picture should be. I prepared this aid to make that clear.





The top of the front sight post should be visually centered in the out-of-focus ring of the rear aperture, and the eye will normally automatically center whatever it focuses on in that ring circle. Then when the sights are aligned properly, place the top of the front sight on the desired point of bullet impact.

Perhaps you know all that, but not everyone does.

Will he be qualifying on rifle, carbine, pistol, machine gun, grenade launcher…?

It has been 15+ years since my last Army qualification shoot; but when 300m ranges could not be accessed for M16/M4 qualifications, targets like these were used at 25m:

https://www.riteintherain.com/...ary-qual-target#9127

It simulates shooting half-silhouettes at various distances. Depending on the range I am at, I would shoot two rounds per target in the prone, one per target kneeling, and one per target standing.

I will now yield the floor to those with current or more recent qualification experience!

Fundamentals matter more than anything, he should be able to go to the arms room and ask to practice and all he needs is a rifle, a buddy and a penny or dime. He gets into the prone and the buddy balances the coin on the front sight post while he pulls the trigger without it falling off. Do that until you’re sick of it then do it more, then also go over proper sight alignment, we did this stuff when we were bored or if somebody didn’t shoot too well they did it whenever there was time and it always helped.

As far as equipment used our m4’s had a knights armament flip up iron sight and a standard front sight gas block. We’d always take off our optics to shoot usually… maybe things are different these days who knows.

I will piggy back on what limblessbiff has written.

Work on fundamentals, and if he wants to get trigger time, practice his zero qual.

armored:
I am not sure what your son's MOS is or the unit he is attached to, but by now most units have M4's. I know there are a few units in the Army reserve that still issues the M16A2/A4 but those are very few and far between.

I know my previous unit did and still uses the the National Guard base here in Butner NC to qualify.

The newer qualification course using barricades kicked my butt. I had not shot or qualified in years and it smoked me. It smoked 3/4 of my Civil Affairs unit. (This was 2024)

That part he cannot practice.
I know it is or was unit dependent, but we did not use optics. It was all iron sights.

(I have always shot like garbage with an M4. There are two things I tried to give back to the Army. My rank (go back to E-5) and that stupid M4. Give me back my M16A2 or M16A4, I carried for years and shot great with.

Creeping Death is spot on with that link for that target. We still use those for practice after we zero before or instead of the pop up range.


Hopefully, our member Edmond will see this and chime in and offer his advice..

quote:

Originally posted by mrapteam666:
The newer qualification course using barricades ....

Can you explain what that refers to? What sort of barricades and how do you use them?

One comment about “fundamentals.” Years ago I attended a commercial training course whose first day was taught by an “adjunct,” not the guru we expected. Attendees included those of us who were there for the certificate and drills, not really to learn much new, to absolute novices. When the novices couldn’t hit their targets the so-called instructor kept yelling, “Remember your fundamentals.” The problem: Obviously that they had received no training on fundamentals, or really anything else; it was just “Shoot here: ….”

Another time an LEO approached me because his wife who worked at a prison was on the verge of being fired because she couldn’t qualify with their AR-15s. What she told me about the “training” she received was enough to curl my 1/8" hair. After two sessions with me she came back and reported she had scored the highest on their qual course.

I don’t know what the state of firearms training in the armed forces is these days, especially the Army National Guard, but it is quite possible that someone who has difficulty qualifying hasn’t been taught anything worthwhile, much less “fundamentals.” I don’t know the OP’s qualifications for teaching the applicable marksmanship, but if he’s not all that confident, it would probably be worth trying to find a professional. Anyone in the armed forces should be confident of their ability to handle and shoot their duty weapon(s) in a capable manner, and unfortunately the official training they get may not give them that confidence.

https://soldiersystems.net/201...-individual-weapons/

My Son asked me to build him this so he can practice for the qualifications.This is the barricade.
Good thing he has a 100yard range at his house to practice on.

I put together a LE 6120 and removed the Trijicon optic and went with a ARMS 40L rear iron sight.This should be close enough to what I gather is the standard qualification rifle he will be using.

Thanks Armored:

I stepped away from the computer and did not see sigfreund post.

I just cannot get comfortable with the barricade. I am either to high or too low.
I am not sure what it is.. I never had a problem using them at the police academy or any training schools. But that was years ago and I wasn't trying to hit timed pop ups.

(I am one of those jacked up guys, who shoots long guns left handed but handguns right. )

quote:

Originally posted by mrapteam666:
(I am one of those jacked up guys, who shoots long guns left handed but handguns right. )

Left eye dominant?
I am also, and probably shod be shooting long guns left handed as well, but I haven’t been. Sigh…

All this is starting to hurt my reptilian brain and I'm not even the one doing this.
I don't seem to get definitive info from my Son.
He called his recruiter to ask specific questions on the course of fire and equipment used.
First I was told that its a M4 that he will use, with iron sights. Now he said a Aimpoint was possible to use or irons, I find that hard to believe that you get a choice. In boot camp he told me you had to qualify with irons before you could qualify with a Aimpoint.He only used the irons.
His drill instructor just told him that he had just arrived at this station and did not really know what the recertifications use here.He thought a ACOG was used.
The recruiter said the course was 40 rounds from 25yards to 300 yards.
My advice to my Son will be to shoot the M4 (6920) with the iron sights and the Aimpoint for his practice.

There is no qualifications with a pistol, they are only required if he is a MP.

Thanks for the help everyone!!!

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
This is the barricade.

Thanks. I was a fan of that style of barricade for a number of years, but have changed my mind recently. Now it strikes me more as a “How much can we screw with the trainees?” gimmick rather than something that measures, much less teaches useful skills. When I decided I wanted LEOs to be practiced at shooting at a BG’s legs from under a car, that’s the drill I developed: lay down on the ground, shoot under two boards at the height and distance apart to simulate the bottom of a car and at plastic pipe sections the size of a person’s legs.

At least the qualification barricade doesn’t include the narrow angled slots that were totally unrealistic, but is it sturdy enough to permit a solid leaning rest position for shooting like genuine cover would offer? If not, what’s the purpose of the different heights that people must shoot from?

And just like some of the props and weights that are evidently required for fitness tests, does every soldier have access to the barricade to practice shooting around and over? Back when I enlisted, the PT test included a grenade throw, a “run, dodge, and jump,” and an overhead ladder—three special setups that were not readily available to everyone. Changing the fitness requirements to things that everyone could practice anywhere, any time, including at home after work made much more sense for most soldiers.

quote:

Originally posted by armored:
All this is starting to hurt my reptilian brain and I'm not even the one doing this.
I don't seem to get definitive info from my Son.
He called his recruiter to ask specific questions on the course of fire and equipment used.
First I was told that its a M4 that he will use, with iron sights. Now he said a Aimpoint was possible to use or irons, I find that hard to believe that you get a choice. In boot camp he told me you had to qualify with irons before you could qualify with a Aimpoint.He only used the irons.
His drill instructor just told him that he had just arrived at this station and did not really know what the recertifications use here.He thought a ACOG was used.
The recruiter said the course was 40 rounds from 25yards to 300 yards.
My advice to my Son will be to shoot the M4 (6920) with the iron sights and the Aimpoint for his practice.

There is no qualifications with a pistol, they are only required if he is a MP.

Thanks for the help everyone!!!

It all depends on where you are. I was an MP but we didn’t get a pistol until the AIT phase of our osut training.
I went through basic in early 2009, we shot iron sighted M16 a-2’s then swapped out for the M4 halfway through training. Always qualified with irons but we did use optics (Aimpoints) when they were teaching us about different equipment we will use like nvg’s and lasers ect.. now in the regular army I always qualified with irons but occasionally we’d zero with optics, most of us had Aimpoints, some acogs. Mostly for team leaders. But we’d take em off for storage.. whether he shoots with an m4 or m16 shouldn’t matter much. Irons vs red dot or acog shouldn’t throw him off too much as long as he’s good with the basics. If he can shoot great with irons then he’s set with an optic. So have him practice with irons and he’ll be ok

Armored:

The command team could tell the Company commanders, NCO's etc.. the days (weeks) prior to going to the range, that they are going to zero and qual with a red dot type apparatus. Then 0 dark thirty of range day, when they are checking out weapons, they can say irons only. Or vice versa.

It has happened to me a few times.

It seems that it depends what month, quarter, year, etc.. that Brigade, Division or Big Army gets an idea.

I know for a long time they were using irons only but then everyone was deploying and getting issued ACOG, Aimpoints, etc.. and everyone struggled with them, some had QC issues, etc... So then they switched to qualifying with them.

The same goes with qualifying wearing gloves, helmet, knees pads, etc..

I look at this now as an opportunity.
He has never been one to want to take advice, a confirmed find out the hard way guy.
I actually feel embarrassed that he has such little command of the iron sights, but he has almost always had a scope on any rifle he shoots and gives me a "look" whenever I have tried to work with him on iron sights.
As a retired LE firearms instructor in Handgun/Shotgun I feel even more embarrassed that he never acquired this skill set.
He told me after boot camp that he struggled with his firearms qualifications, mostly the barricade part. He has always striven to be the best in sports and I could see this really bothered him. He was top in his Boot camp in all the physical tests he did despite his age at the time of 36 years.He had a huge motivation to beat all the youngsters.

Now I think as the new qualifications come up in a few months he will want to listen to instruction. I will help supply him with all the tools he will need to succeed. I know he wants this bad!

Thank you for all the advice you have given me.

Armored:

I completely understand
When I went back to boot camp for the 2nd time, I was 36 years of age. In fact, there were quite a few guys in my company who were between 32-44. The same when I got to Fort Bragg for AIT.
So, we all had a lot to prove.. ((Even though most of the guys were Police Officers or paramedics.))

I have always been an average shooter, so I have to work really hard and practice. Which leads to self doubt and getting pissed.

It is even worse now that I turned 54 and most of my soldiers are 22-28 years younger than me.
Whether it is PT, shooting, training, etc..

I am hoping your son has some good NCO's that will take the time to help the soldiers and teach them the tricks to master this new course of fire.

The problem was my last unit had a crappy command staff, and the senior NCO's were a**holes. They caused a lot of problems for the soldiers. (Which is why a crap ton left the Army)
There was no instruction, or help.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mrapteam666,

My Oldest son is an E7 in the Army and his unit is getting ready to deploy later this year. As part of that run up they have to do their rifle quals again. Here is what he said about what they’ll be doing…


Yes m4, we use either acogs or red dots. And yes it’s the standard army qual. Shooting from a barricade from different positions standing kneeling prone etc. 40 rounds