Now, someone asked about rent-seeking. The author means they want to get paid by the government with incentives and tax abatements, and grants and all that.

Usually rent-seeking means you want to get paid for doing nothing, essentially standing in the way of the productive flow and getting paid to get out of the way. High cost "environmental assessments" that prevent projects from happening in any reasonable amount of time are "rent seeking" IMO.

Now, why did the auto industry jump in too fast?

You have ESG ratings, and you have a government sating ICE will be banned within 10 years. It takes half a decade to bring a new car to market - so they needed to get started earlier and work out the kinks so they could be competitive when they have no choice but to sell EV's. And they needed to be in the market with Tesla and the other dedicated EV makers to avoid being left behind.

Then you have $ Trillions in "green investment money" some of which will subsidize EV investment and purchase. And some of it was SUPPOSED to subsidize a major expansion of the EV charger infrastructure. Many $ Billions for that, and after 3 years they have like SEVEN new chargers. Mayor Pete recently showed his incompetence in making excuses for why they have not accomplished much. I will bet a LOT of the delay is due to rent-seeking by politicians, regulators, environmental groups, and what have you. But in any case, the infrastructure the OEM's were counting on is not there yet and that is a big reason people aren't buying EV's. They were foolish to think any of this stuff would happen on time.

Then, this is a big one, there is no real secondary market for EV's because a used EV needing a battery replacement is a non-starter cost wise. Apple and other phone makers sell people new phones every 2-3 years based on battery life. Almost no one gets new batteries. I'm sure the OEM's salivated about going back to the old days where people bought new cars every few years because they had to - cars didn't last that long. Stable demand, a sale every 4 years or so, not having to worry about people keeping their cars 10 years to avoid the new car expense when the economy hits a downturn.

Lastly, new startup EV companies can get a lot of funding from VC's in exchange for equity because if they hit it big, the stock IPO will make a ton of money. They can run at a big loss for a long time, and often have sky high stock price after IPO even with the operating losses. Politicians are invited in on IPO's, so they enact laws to favor the startup companies. Blue Chip companies can't get this kind of VC capital, because they can't issue the equity % VC's demand. They have to fund the investment themselves, with retained earnings or bond debt. So they are likely to fall behind the upstarts...

But now, with inflation so high, and cars jumping up a lot in price, people aren't buying. They can't afford it.

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
The new GM EV Silverado weighs 9116 pounds. That seems a little heavy??

Says 8800 pounds in this Car and Driver article... not far off.

And safety people are wringing hands over how much damage one of these will do in an accident with a normal car...

The whole issue is that CO2 is no more a pollutant than Oxygen, yet the fraud that man made CO2 has caused our planet to increase in temperature to any statistically significant degree continues to perpetuate. By any logical, and scientific measure, we simply aren’t ready for mass adoption of fully electric vehicles, nor are they appreciably beneficial to the environment. Yet President kid sniffer and his supporters continue to foist this crap upon us!

Look, I love Elon Musk and what he does for freedom in these United States. But what we need is for every purely electric vehicle manufacturer to implode and go the way of the 8 track. I’m ok with plug-in hybrids at this point, but purely electric vehicles should be limited to the realm of golf carts. The day of reckoning for the EV industry is long overdue and I welcome the implosion.

^^^ That goes without saying really. But the marxists have poured so much money into "research" to "prove" CO2 is causing "existential" warming so they can justify controlling every aspect of the economy and our lives. Despite the failure of every marxist government in history, they still think they can "get it right" this time.

And they have infiltrated the entire education system and are brainwashing kids from an early age to believe this stuff without question. Try arguing with a younger person about "climate change" - many cannot even consider that it is a big lie.

Study: The Amount of Copper Needed for EVs Is ‘Impossible for Mining Companies to Produce’

https://www.breitbart.com/tech...possible-to-produce/

A recent study from the University of Michigan has shed light on a critical challenge facing the global transition to electric vehicles: the inability of copper mining to keep pace with the growing demand.

Engineering & Technology reports that copper, a crucial component in electricity generation, distribution, and storage, is fundamental to the successful implementation of policies aimed at promoting the adoption of EVs. However, a recent study from the University of Michigan, titled “Copper mining and vehicle electrification,” has revealed that the current rate of copper production is insufficient to meet the projected demand for the metal in the coming years.

According to GlobalData, there are over 709 operational copper mines worldwide, with the Escondida mine in Chile being the largest, producing an estimated 882,100 tons of copper in 2023. Despite this seemingly huge output, the rapid pace of electrification globally is outstripping the mining industry’s ability to keep up. In fact, the authors state that, “We show in the paper that the amount of copper needed is essentially impossible for mining companies to produce.”

The Michigan study highlights the fact that an EV requires three to five times more copper than traditional gas or diesel cars, not to mention the additional copper needed for upgrades to the electricity grid. As Professor Adam Simon from the University of Michigan points out, “A normal Honda Accord needs about 40 pounds of copper. The same battery electric Honda Accord needs almost 200 pounds of copper.”

The researchers analyzed 120 years of global data on copper production, dating back to 1900, and modeled the likely copper production for the remainder of the century. They compared this with the projected copper requirements for the US electricity infrastructure and vehicle fleet to transition to renewable energy. The study concluded that renewable energy’s copper needs would exceed the current production capacity of copper mines.

Between now and 2050, the world will need to mine 115 percent more copper than has been mined in all of human history up until 2018, just to meet current copper needs without considering the green energy transition. To meet the copper demands of electrifying the global vehicle fleet, as many as six new large copper mines must be brought online annually over the next several decades, with about 40 percent of the production from these new mines being required for EV-related grid upgrades.

The study suggests that instead of fully electrifying the entire US fleet of vehicles, focusing on manufacturing hybrid vehicles might be a more feasible approach. Professor Simon notes, “We know, for example, that a Toyota Prius actually has a slightly better impact on climate than a Tesla. Instead of producing 20 million EVs in the US and, globally, 100 million battery EVs each year, would it be more feasible to focus on building 20 million hybrid vehicles?”

Copper recently hit $5 a pound, high.

A normal Honda Accord needs about 40 pounds of copper. The same battery electric Accord needs 200 pounds.
Onshore wind turbines require about 10 tons of copper, and offshore approx. 20 tons.
The world will need to mine 115% more copper than has been mined in all human history just to meet “business as usual.”
This would meet our current copper needs and support the developing world without considering the green energy transition.
Six new large mines need to come online every year by 2050 to meet global copper demand, but the problem is it takes about 20 years to discover a new copper mineral deposit and get a permit to build a mine.
None of this considers the electrical infrastructure upgrades needed to "electrify the world by 2050.”

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
I’m ok with plug-in hybrids at this point,

I'm kinda-sorta okay with hybrids, but not really a fan of the plug-in hybrid. IMO, if it can't make its own power, so to speak, I'm not a fan. Let the ICE run a small generator, use regenerative braking, and so forth... but if the battery power "advantage" requires me to plug in somewhere, then I'm out. I have no patience for a tether.

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
I’m ok with plug-in hybrids at this point,

I'm kinda-sorta okay with hybrids, but not really a fan of the plug-in hybrid. IMO, if it can't make its own power, so to speak, I'm not a fan. Let the ICE run a small generator, use regenerative braking, and so forth... but if the battery power "advantage" requires me to plug in somewhere, then I'm out.

I think for many the Plug In Hybrid is the best option.
My family included, get me a plug in hybrid that gets a true 50-75 miles on a charge and it would fit a lot of needs.
Plug it in after the daily commute. Only use gas when one travels.
We have relatively inexpensive electric here. We’d only have to get gas between our 2 vehicles maybe once a month.
My vehicle gets parked outside could probably get a decent sized solar panel and charge as I have a company car I drive during the day and could charge all day.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
The whole issue is that CO2 is no more a pollutant than Oxygen, yet the fraud that man made CO2 has caused our planet to increase in temperature to any statistically significant degree continues to perpetuate.

There's intriguing research showing the weakening of the earth's magnetic field causes major climate change. We are due for a pole-flip any moment now (in geologic time), and the field is weakening and shifting rapidly. At best, CO2 is only somewhat correlated to global temperatures. But there's no money or political power in blaming the Sun for climate change!

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:

quote:

Originally posted by snidera:

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
A hybrid doesn't need a transmission or a V6 engine either. The engine just runs to charge the battery.

None of the models I'm familiar with works as you suggest.

I'm with snidera on this one. Every hybrid I've dealt with has had both an ICE drivetrain and an electric one.

The BMW i3 used a "range-extender" gasoline engine/generator that was about 650cc in size, used solely to charge the batteries. It was discontinued in '21 or '22.