When WWII kicked off, we were "The Sleeping Giant" that Japan had feared we would be. We were the world's factory. We turned our steel, auto, and hard and soft goods factories from commercial pursuits to wartime production and out-produced the Germans.

Compare that to today: Does that sound like us? Could we out-produce anyone, at this point?

Or, does it sound like China? If China turned all of their manufacturing capacity to the items needed to outfit an army and prosecute a war, invasion and occupation, how long would it take them from "Go!" to "Ready!"?

Imagine what that would look like? China could put 300,000,000 men in uniform, without blinking. They could outfit them with North Face jackets, Danner boots, and Yeti canteens. They would carry Kershaw/Emerson knives. They would drive Humvees.
They are making all of those goods, right now, and many more of our "high-end, premium" goods.

When does this start setting off alarm bells? When does having a certain number of steel mills, a certain number of skilled machinists and welders, become a matter of national security?

If the war started today, we would lose. It would take time, but we would never catch up.

Is it too late, already?

Bruce

We should certainly maintain certain key manufacturing capabilities, but we do not have a lack of manufacturing:

“The United States is the world's second largest manufacturer with a record high real output in Q1 2018 of $2.00 trillion well above the 2007 peak before the Great Recession of $1.95 trillion.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...in_the_United_States

Manufacturing jobs have been decreasing for years due to automation

These discussions comparing our WW2 fight to present day warfare always ignore the development of modern warfare. Fortunately, we don’t fight like we used to.

quote:

Originally posted by PD:
These discussions comparing our WW2 fight to present day warfare always ignore the development of modern warfare. Fortunately, we don’t fight like we used to.

Right. We're built to have overwhelming technical superiority. In WWII we just had the overwhelming numbers due to our manufacturing. We can't/won't just throw bodies and tanks at problems anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by PD:
These discussions comparing our WW2 fight to present day warfare always ignore the development of modern warfare. Fortunately, we don’t fight like we used to.

I get that technology has changed since I learned to use a compass as a scout. When you look the different battles it’s same. Roberts Ridge for example. If you look at the battles a lot of recent MOH winners were in could have been in any war.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob at the Beach:
If you look at the battles a lot of recent MOH winners were in could have been in any war.

Namely because nearly every MOH situation was fucked up beyond all recognition and the fellas on the ground had to slug it out. That never changes.

Until the American public starts to demand domestic goods and be willing to pay a bit more, or, at least goods are made on this side of the hemisphere, our low-skilled manufacturing jobs will continue to dwindle.

In my line of work, the US used to be the largest manufacture of raw materials due to all the wool and cotton mills that dotted every small town. Farms raised animals for industry, mills that did processing of raw goods, mills that did the dying for all the manufacturers making clothing, upholstery and industrial use. Today, there's very, VERY few left. Socks and basic cotton t-shirts are all that's left. There's only two facilities in the US that are certified to produce Gore-Tex jackets, there's no manufacturer of quality zippers and Velcro...YKK doesn't have a factory in the US, neither does their chief competitor. Petroleum refiners are geared solely for vehicular and agricultural usage, not much nylon or, poly getting produced in the States. Most plastic production is focused on defense contractors. Not too many basic, mid-range consumer goods are produced in the US.

quote:

Originally posted by PD:
These discussions comparing our WW2 fight to present day warfare always ignore the development of modern warfare. Fortunately, we don’t fight like we used to.

I am not ignoring it. I am questioning whether how we *plan* to fight will matter if someone like China doesn't want to fight the way we want to.

Our last several wars, we chose when and where to fight and by what means.

If China decided to ignore our desire for a techno-war, at a distance, and instead gave us an old-school mechanized land mass invade and hold territory fight, what then? They could throw planes at us until we ran out of $1,000,000 Tomahawks and tanks at us until we ran out of depleted uranium rounds.
Hell, they could throw farmers with pitchforks at us until we ran out of bullets.

I think they would do it, knowing that our present population would blanch at the loss of life. I think they would force us to the brink where nukes were the only way to win hoping that we would surrender like the Vichy French before doing what is necessary to beat them.

I hope to god I am wrong but it troubles me.

Bruce

China produces 30x the amount of iron ore that we do. Even if we had more manufacturing capabilities, where would we get the raw materials from?

We don't have the manpower to fight. And if every male citizen were drafted - the illegals would occupy the country.

quote:

When does our lack of manufacturing capacity become a national security concern

About 30 years ago.

My nightmare scenario is: EMP knocks out the grid and fries all of our technology. China establishes a beachhead in California with human wave attacks. They roll 50 armored divisions onto the shore and don't stop until they hit DC.

We would be done before we even got started.

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by RNshooter:
My nightmare scenario is: EMP knocks out the grid and fries all of our technology. China establishes a beachhead in California with human wave attacks. They roll 50 armored divisions onto the shore and don't stop until they hit DC.

We would be done before we even got started.

Not gonna happen. You worry too much. Find a hobby or something. Maybe go out to the range.

quote:

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

Originally posted by RNshooter:
My nightmare scenario is: EMP knocks out the grid and fries all of our technology. China establishes a beachhead in California with human wave attacks. They roll 50 armored divisions onto the shore and don't stop until they hit DC.

We would be done before we even got started.

Not gonna happen. You worry too much. Find a hobby or something. Maybe go out to the range.

Or look at a map.

quote:

Originally posted by RNshooter:
My nightmare scenario is: EMP knocks out the grid and fries all of our technology. China establishes a beachhead in California with human wave attacks. They roll 50 armored divisions onto the shore and don't stop until they hit DC.

We would be done before we even got started.

Bruce

Shipping containers make lousy troop carriers. Even if they tried to send 50 divisions to invade we'd destroy them before they got to Hawaii let alone California. The next war will be won or lost in space and that is why Trump wants a military arm to carry out that mission.

You need to worry more about Para's comet or AOC becoming president some day.

Jim

"Or look at a map"


Care to elaborate?

I'm pretty sure the ICBMs are protected against EMP. So are the ballistic missile subs.

quote:

Originally posted by RNshooter:
My nightmare scenario is: EMP knocks out the grid and fries all of our technology. China establishes a beachhead in California with human wave attacks. They roll 50 armored divisions onto the shore and don't stop until they hit DC.

We would be done before we even got started.

Bruce

Some thinkers believe that a truly large-scale conflict will be a come-as-you-are war. That theory believes that a large scale war will not last long enough for capacity to be a problem. They fear that if the conventional fighting starts to go clearly against one side, the loser will be irresistibly tempted to use nuclear weapons. Even if that is only a tactical use at first, they then fear that will escalate.

I would think this would apply only to direct conflict between major world powers, where national survival is, essentially, at stake.

I am not arguing strongly for this view, as I don't have enough knowledge. But I throw it out there.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

Originally posted by RNshooter:
My nightmare scenario is: EMP knocks out the grid and fries all of our technology. China establishes a beachhead in California with human wave attacks. They roll 50 armored divisions onto the shore and don't stop until they hit DC.

We would be done before we even got started.

Not gonna happen. You worry too much. Find a hobby or something. Maybe go out to the range.

Or look at a map.

Yeah, the Pacific is pretty big.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:

quote:

When does our lack of manufacturing capacity become a national security concern

About 30 years ago.

pretty much what I came here to say

we long passed that point

but we could ramp up pretty quickly I am sure to the extent that within 18 months we could be firing in terms of equipment production

on a side note - we have THOUSANDs upon THOUSANDS of old planes in boneyards such as Davis-Monthan. I have always wondered realistically what it would take to make them operational again

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