Wasn't Larry Potts of ATF in charge of the whole operation? I don't recall reading whether Horiuchi acted on his own, was ordered to fire or what the ROE were.

I specifically remember that wretched beast Dianne Feinstein interrogating the daughter at the congressional hearings debate the events and that girl said yeah, I was there. That family didn’t get paid nearly enough. And the .gov people responsible were never held to account.

Didn’t Horiuchi testify he could shoot a quarter at some insane distance and then Couldn’t answer why he shot an unarmed woman who was holding an infant in the head at a very close distance. Entire deal was a CF.

working under the direction of the ATF


but more to the overall point, exactly what does the ATF provide that cannot be managed by a local dogcatcher?

they're not very good at doing firearm suppressor transfers

what is it they do that makes them so invaluable as a law enforcement agency - they seem to be pretty inept (not as bad as the Feebs, but they're working on it)

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
working under the direction of the ATF

No. The incident at Ruby Ridge began as a US Marshal's attempt to serve a Failure to Appear warrant issued by a federal court, and escalated to a FBI operation after the initial encounter and shootout involving six Marshals.

The FBI was in overall command of the subsequent siege from that point, and the FBI HRT (including Horiuchi) were the ones involved in the second bout of shooting where Horiuchi shot Vicki Weaver.

So again, if Horiushi's actions at Ruby Ridge are the basis for your dislike of the ATF, you really need to learn more about this incident. Horiuchi was not working for the ATF, or even at the direction of the ATF.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
Wasn't Larry Potts of ATF in charge of the whole operation?

No. Larry Potts was assistant director of the FBI. He did not work for ATF.

FBI SAC Eugene Glenn was in command of the siege, although certain aspects were approved or arranged by his superiors (like Potts) back at FBI HQ in Washington DC.

quote:

I don't recall reading whether Horiuchi acted on his own, was ordered to fire or what the ROE were.

Horiuchi acted on his own initiative, based on the Rules of Engagement they had been provided.

The ROEs for HRT's involvement at Ruby Ridge were drafted by the HRT commander Richard Rogers, and then approved by higher level FBI folks (including Potts). They stated:

1. If any adult in the area around the cabin is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement had been made, deadly force could and should be used to neutralize the individual.
2. If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement deadly force can and should be employed if the shot could be taken without endangering any children.
3. If compromised by any dog the dog can be taken out.
4. Any subjects other than Randy Weaver, Vicki Weaver, Kevin Harris presenting threat of death or grievous bodily harm FBI rules of deadly force apply. Deadly force can be utilized to prevent the death or grievous bodily injury to oneself or that of another.


Even several members of the FBI HRT later stated that these ROEs were a dramatic departure from their usual ROEs, and they were surprised at the wording. (In particular, that deadly force "could and should" be used on any adult merely seen with a weapon.)

After the subsequent bout of shooting by Horiuchi and the killing of Vicki Weaver, these overly broad ROEs were later revoked, and the standard FBI policy regarding the use of deadly force (specifically requiring yourself or a third party being in imminent danger of serious physical injury or death) was in effect for the remainder of the standoff.

quote:

Originally posted by ElToro:
Didn’t Horiuchi testify he could shoot a quarter at some insane distance and then Couldn’t answer why he shot an unarmed woman who was holding an infant in the head at a very close distance.

Horiuchi's intention wasn't to shoot Vicki Weaver. He was attempting to shoot Kevin Harris as he retreated back into the house. He fired through a door, hoping to strike Harris as Harris was passing behind it. The bullet went through the door and did strike Harris, but also struck Vicki Weaver who was standing on the other side of the door, unbeknownst to Horiuchi (since he couldn't actually see what was on the other side of the door at which he was firing).


This was a FBI failure, involving a FBI HRT member improperly firing at/through a door without fully identifying what was beyond it, while operating under terribly misguided and overly broad rules of engagement written by members of the FBI, while under the command of the FBI.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

I stand corrected

And I still don’t like the ATF