If you guys are interested in some of the history of postwar German extremist movements, this is an excellent watch. English subtitles provided if closed captioning turned on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNC6bah4Dkk&t=1117s

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
The parallels between the 60s-80s period and the last 20 years have been evident for some time, though the chronology of developments doesn't quite match. In either case, things started with dissatisfaction among a non-trivial part of the population about the state of politics and democratic participation.

We're re-living the 70's, not literally but, in the actions of various affinity groups seeking grievance and attempting to produce a change in culture. In some ways the activists have gotten smarter, by influencing corporate boards their executives and wealth equity managers, and in other ways, much dumber as there's an underlaying ethic of little-action and lack of grit.

quote:

I like to say they're the ones who missed out on youthful rebellion in the "End of History" years after the Cold War, but obviously it's also the generation succeptible to fears of losing what they have already built up in life.

There's a distinct attempt amongst today's activists to re-create the conditions and movements from the 60's, what most do not understand or, fail to connect the dots, is those movements largely created the turmoil and upheaval that the 70's wrought upon cultures and society. The tech world liked to tout 'disruption' as being a positive ethic in the early 2000's...what happens when EVERYONE embraces a 'disruption' ethic? The culture has little stability and you get a 'new culture' that lacks identity and the adherents become quickly dissatisfied.

Most enlightening commentary I've seen about anything on the internet today. Special thanks to BansheeOne for the in-depth discussion von der Haupstadt.

I studied at the Free University Berlin, but my year ended a year before Red Rudi Dutschke and his pals (one of whom was in my classes) stormed the Mensa.

I can’t see how a coup, exactly, could take over Germany - but I can see the international socialist parties getting hinky if a nationalist/liberal party starts to gain power - and I could see where a “care for the refugees in their own country” could make some progress with a liberal party pushing it.

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:
Most enlightening commentary I've seen about anything on the internet today. Special thanks to BansheeOne for the in-depth discussion von der Haupstadt.

BansheeOne does, indeed, offer insightful commentary on conditions in his country and Europe in general.

To thank him for his contributions, I have assigned BansheeOne the CUT of "SIGforum's Berlin Correspondent".

We hope he will continue to illuminate the European landscape for us for years to come.

Well damn. I never thought I'd get a CUT on Sigforum; except possibly something like "Teutonic Smartass", which I'd have found entirely appropriate. Thank you, I'll try to use it responsibly.

Continuing on the parallels with the 70s, it's interesting how the attitude and language of the Left and Right have reversed. I first really noted it when watching "Sympathisanten", a film by the son of German movie director Margarete von Trotta, who as a historian by trade interviews his mother and her circle of fellow artists and intellectuals about the time they were accused of being sympathizers of the Red Army Faction. Not just were their attempts at explaining their own stance enlightening, but also the footage of other public figures denouncing them (in German, obviously).



A notable issue are the attempts at banning suspected radicals from public service, which was protested very loudly by the Left in the 70s, and in the end mostly evaporated in the legal system. It's funny to see the same camp now demanding better means to bar former AfD MPs from returning to their former posts in courts and law enforcement, excluding suspicious ramblers from jobs in education, etc. Sure, there is the legal requirement for sworn officials to stand for the constitutional order, and an obvious disconnect in servants of the state denying the existence of the same state which pays them. But I don't see things like a bill now proposed by Interior Minister Nancy Faeser to make suspects prove their innocence in court after being fired faring any better down the road than the attempts 50 years ago.

I'm just as amused by the folks claiming that the current coup accusations are a government false flag show on the evidence that the conspirators clearly wouldn't have had a chance with their harebrained plans, which should have been obvious to any sane person. The fallacy there is that we're talking of a bunch led by a guy who by accounts of acquaintances ran a registration drive in his neighborhood for citizenship in his princedom as a way out of statelessness in the non-existing Federal Republic, and tried to negotiate "real" peace treaties with both Putin and, earlier, the Trump administration. There were those who suspected that the last generation of the RAF which was active into the 90s was a false flag, too, to maintain the terrorist threat as an excuse for government action.

Rundown on the coup crew by "Spiegel" (which incidentally is clearly left of center as editorial lines in Germany go):

quote:

Prince Putsch and His Gang

The Motley Crew that Wanted to Topple the German Government

An obscure German blue blood is reportedly at the center of a strange plan to topple the German government foiled this week by the country's security services. Observers are describing the development as a dangerous escalation of the Reichsbürger movement, whose followers want to overthrow Germany's leaders.

By Maik Baumgärtner, Jörg Diehl, Roman Höfner, Martin Knobbe, Matthias Gebauer, Tobias Großekemper, Roman Lehberger, Ann-Katrin Müller, Sven Röbel, Fidelius Schmid und Wolf Wiedmann-Schmidt

10.12.2022, 13.36 Uhr

The Waidmannsheil hunting lodge is enthroned on a hill on a bend of the Saale River in the southeastern part of the eastern German state of Thuringia. It belongs to the Reussens, a former noble family who ruled the area for 800 years before the end of the German monarchy.

It was built for Henry the 72nd between 1834 and 1837, a single-story structure surrounded by trees and a steep rocky embankment that falls away behind the building. The entrance portal is flanked by sculptures of a bear and boar, both of stone. A tower with battlements makes the whole thing look a lot like a small fortress. Stag antlers hang from the very top of the façade.

The present lord of the manor is Henry XIII. Prince Reuss, an entrepreneur who established himself in Frankfurt as a real estate mogul and as a producer of sparkling wine. Some residents of the small town had been wondering for some time what the 71-year-old was up to. First, a mysterious sign appeared with the Reussen coat of arms. Then a sinister looking figure with a walkie-talkie was seen standing at the entrance to the estate, apparently there to keep prying eyes out of a meeting.

Since Wednesday, it seems clear what was going on behind the massive walls. Early that morning, the GSG9, a special German police force, moved in to root out a suspected right-wing extremist terror cell. It is believed to include at least 25 members and helpers, and 29 other men and women are also under investigation. In concert with around 3,000 officers, investigators conducted raids in 11 German states as well as in the upscale Austrian ski resort town Kitzbühel and in Perugia, Italy. It was one of the largest operations against extremists in the history of the German Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA).

For weeks, investigators from the BKA's State Security Division had been shadowing suspects, tapping hundreds of landlines and mobile phones, screening bank accounts and monitoring channels on Telegram, YouTube and Instagram. Ultimately, the Federal Prosecutor in Karlsruhe concluded that a terrorist organization had emerged from the milieu of the "Reichsbürger," a motley crew of politically radicalized Germans who have a weakness for conspiracy theories and reject the legitimacy of postwar Germany. The cell's presumed goal was that of overthrowing the political system in Germany in an armed coup. According to investigators, some members formed the "military arm" of the group and were apparently willing to do whatever it took. According to the allegations brought forward by prosecutors, the defendants accepted the fact that "representatives of the current system" would be killed in the process.

It is a rather strange menagerie that came together to overthrow the state. It includes several members of the German military's Special Forces Command (KSK), an active elite soldier, a police officer who had been suspended from duty, a judge who had been a member of the federal parliament with the far-right Alternative for Germany party for four years, a pilot, a lawyer who holds a doctorate degree, a top chef, a tenor singer, an entrepreneur and a doctor - a surprising number of people from the upper echelons of society.

They include members of the Querdenker, a muddled movement that took to the streets during the pandemic in protest against the federal and state measures to contain the coronavirus. It also includes followers of the conspiracy cult QAnon, who are convinced that a "deep state" is pulling the strings in the background. According to the narrative they espouse, the ruling elite murder children to harvest a rejuvenation serum.

Previously, these right-wing enemies of the state had seemed more like an esoteric political sect than a strictly hierarchical revolutionary commando. The problem is that there are probably tens of thousands of people in these circles in Germany who hold views similar to those of Prince Reuss and his followers.

If the investigators' suspicions are ultimately confirmed, it would mean that Germany finds itself faced with a new form of terrorism and an enormous societal challenge. How is the state supposed to deal with citizens with whom it is unclear if they are just dangerously insane or if they are insanely dangerous?

[...]

https://www.spiegel.de/interna...61-a282-9e9ab2ffa288

I will add this side note:

About 10 years ago a friend and I took several guys from Germany shooting... full auto and such... I filmed some of it and afterwards got an email asking/begging me to not put the video on the internet because one of the guys shooting was running for public office in Germany. I have to admit it all transpired because I was walking through the bar at the convention when my friend called me over and introduced me to these visiting Germans who had come to the convention too and we got to discussing how Americans loved their guns and I finally had to admit that not only was I carrying a gun but that it was a Sig... they got all excited about that and then we proceeded to plan the machine gun shoot a few days later.

Das Spiegel is "Left of center" for sure. Just like the MSM in this country with respect to Jan 6. Fan the hysteria against the "far right" and ignore the more onerous actions of groups you tacitly support like BLM and the COVID enforcers.

I would think Germany would be rather uncomfortable when a Socialist government starts hunting for the “unseen, vast conspirators”

Although, I suppose between the STAZI and the GESTAPO, maybe it’s part of the culture.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

...

To thank him for his contributions, I have assigned BansheeOne the CUT of "SIGforum's Berlin Correspondent".

We hope he will continue to illuminate the European landscape for us for years to come.

BansheeOne, congratulations on the well-deserved CUT. I may not always agree with your analysis, but I do appreciate your input on German and European affairs, especially when much of the US media reporting is both politically biased and domestically focused...with little interest in international events, unless it suits their agenda.

I especially appreciated the Der Spiegel article you posted some months ago in the Afghanistan thread.

... and, right on que.

[Note: multiple hyperlinks found at linked website article.]

=====================



Germany to weigh stricter gun laws after suspected coup plot

19 hours ago

Interior Minister Nancy Faeser said the German government needed to "exert maximum pressure" to remove weapons from far-right extremists of the Reichsbürger movement.

Germany's Interior Minister Nancy Faeser told German newspaper Bild am Sontag on Sunday that the government had plans to tighten its gun laws, in response to the discovery of a suspected far-right plot to violently overthrow the state.

The plot was uncovered in the past days, with conspirators planning to install Heinrich XIII Prince Reuss as national leader.

Authorities have listed more than 50 suspects in the anti-government plot, which was connected to the Reichsbürger movement.

The group reject the German legal and political system, with most of its members propagating the re-establishment of the German empire founded in 1871.

"We need all authorities to exert maximum pressure" to remove their weapons, Faeser was quoted as saying, which was why the government would "shortly further tighten gun laws."

Although citizens in Germany can own guns, the country has some of the strictest gun laws in Europe. Private possession of firearms is rare.

Authorities had already confiscated weapons from more than 1,000 Reichsbürger members before the raids, but another 500 are still believed to hold gun licenses.


Reichsbürger on the rise

Minister Faeser said, citing government figures, that the number of people joining the extremist group had risen.

German domestic intelligence agencies estimate the number of members at around 23,000, which Faeser said represented an increase of 9.5% compared with last year.

"These are not harmless crazy people but suspected terrorists who are now sitting in pre-trial detention," Faeser was quoted as saying.

Some 10% of the Reichsbürger have been regarded as potentially violent, with German police pinning some 239 violent crimes to its members over the course of last year.

Reichsbürger adherents have also worked to recruit current and former army members and have stockpiled weapons.

jcg/fb (Reuters, dpa)

^^^My favorite thing about the 'Holiday Display' of mostly hunting rifles is the particularly festive red & white 'Caution Tape' deployed around the table...

You know if I was going to create a small army ... militia, extremist organization or what ever one of the first things I would do is have all my groups's weapons the same.....

Does look like they were planning to mostly, "vote from the roof tops"

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^^My favorite thing about the 'Holiday Display' of mostly hunting rifles is the particularly festive red & white 'Caution Tape' deployed around the table...

Near as I can tell, looks like only 6 semi-auto anything’s on that table (2 gigantic, non-concealable rifles, 4 handguns, 2 of which look to be fancy target affairs). The rest are bolt guns and shotties; hardly the choice of militant terrorists. And the warning tape is indeed ludicrous.

That image from the DW report is five years old, though at least broadly on topic as it shows weapons seized from a quartet of Berlin Reichsbürger who were dealing with deco guns reworked into live firearms, including full-auto, etc. Little remains known about the "weapons" found "in 50 locations" in the current raids; only one live hand- and two long guns plus the service pistols of two implicated police officers have been confirmed. As noted earlier, the rest may be stuff like air guns, crossbows and blank weapons.

There is some speculation that the suspects may have hidden evidence as despite the hype of their extent, the raids were not exactly the best-kept secret. Political circles and staff rooms of major media were in the know about the investigations at least two weeks prior (journalists were actually present at some raids), and one of the former Bundeswehr officers detained went on vacation the previous week telling a neighbor "if police come around, just politely answer their questions". Just as likely though, they simply hadn't stockpiled a major arsenal - yet, maybe. In fact I suspect the raids went down at this point because authorities could no longer hold off media from breaking the news.

As everywhere, calling for tighter gun laws is the usual reflex after major events somehow connected to guns; but Interior Minister Faeser has not stated any details, which may be because there may not be much. Known extremists can already have licenses denied or revoked; and as for general restrictions, the government coalition includes the liberal FDP which as German politics go is probably the most pro-gun party, and has blocked such moves before. I expect any measures to be peripheral, like better exchange of information between relevant authorities, and speeding up procedures.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackmore:
Das Spiegel is "Left of center" for sure. Just like the MSM in this country with respect to Jan 6. Fan the hysteria against the "far right" and ignore the more onerous actions of groups you tacitly support like BLM and the COVID enforcers.

Correct.
There's not a whole lot of 'Center' with Der Spiegel, they're most definitely Left.

This is starting to smell more and more like a "coup" that was encouraged by security services agent provacateurs. The agenda appears clear and the shoe has dropped with the leftist parties now demanding that the AfD party be declared illegal.

https://www.breitbart.com/euro...be-declared-illegal/

Paging @BansheeOne for his insights

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

To thank him for his contributions, I have assigned BansheeOne the CUT of "SIGforum's Berlin Correspondent".

We hope he will continue to illuminate the European landscape for us for years to come.

I would like to think that William Shirer is looking down on BansheeOne with an admiring smile, as a father does on a son.

The suggestion to prepare a case to ban the AfD came from Thuringia state interior minister Georg Maier of the Social Democrats. Incidentally, Thuringia is the only German state led by the Left Party, currently in a minority government with SPD and Greens, because the last elections put the AfD into a blocking position for any majority since noone will enter into a coalition with them. There was some support from the national Green party for the proposal, but even Maier's SPD colleagues from other states were sceptical, and the Conservatives flat-out rejected it. Everyone's still burned from the failed attempt to ban the National Democratic Party a couple years ago, the last cause celebré to fight organized right-wing extremism. This is an actual neo-Nazi party, but the Constitutional Court which decides on such cases ruled that while they exhibited the "aggressive militant fundamental attitude" against the constitutional order - which is the standard that must be proven - their lack of influence meant they presented no actual danger, and thus a ban would be disproportionate.

With the AfD the case might be the opposite; they're certainly influential through representation in most state parliaments and the Bundestag, but proving the above standard might be difficult, given that much of the same attitudes can be found in parts of the Left Party on the other fringe of the parliamentary system. The only two parties actually ever banned were the Socialist Reich Party which saw themselves in the tradition of the Nazis in 1952, and the Communists four years later. And legalities aside, everyone's aware that you can ban parties, but not convictions, and it might even be better to have enemies of the constitution in a party that can be watched rather than them going underground. Another West German communist party was founded in 1968, for example, and exists with little success to this day.

A more likely consequence might be reform of the process to get rid of sworn officials (which is notoriously hard whatever the reason) exhibiting anti-constitutional convictions. Federal Interior Minister Faeser had to backtrack from a stupid statement that she wanted to "reverse the burden of proof", which was widely understood to mean that suspects would have to prove their innocence, and critiziced accordingly. What's actually planned is authorities no longer having to go through disciplinary courts to fire officials, rather than this being an administrative act - which can however be contested in court. That's the way the state of Baden-Württemberg has been doing it since 2008, and the case of a police officer terminated after being convicted on three counts of fraud and forgery was upheld by the Constitutional Court in 2020.

Any bill will have to be agreed with the Ministry of Justice lead by the Liberals though, which has stated non-committally that they're "open" for proposals. Whether a result observing all judicial standards and protections will actually speed up proceedings has been doubted by legal professionals, though. Justice Minister Marco Buschmann has already pretty much shot down Faeser's proposals for tightening gun laws by repeating the truism that it's quite sufficient to take weapons away from extremists as it is now, you just have to use it, and equip authorities for that. As I suspected, most of the plans are about better information sharing, though that includes warnings of psychological issues - something Faeser's conservative predecessor Horst Seehofer already failed to push through due to the particular protection of medical data.

The only actual gun law issue, and rather unrelated to current events, would have been banning semi-automatic rifles appearing like weapons of war, which would have reverted a liberalization from 2004. With no support from the Liberals, there's no majority for that; even the Left Party, which must mind the gun owners among its mostly East German voters, has come out against linking the law to the Reichsbürger thing. As it is, by reports from today ten illegal firearms were found in the raids, while another 94 were legally registered between a total of 54 suspects, so it's not like they all had an arms room ready to equip a revolutionary army. Attention briefly shifted to nationwide raids (though on a much smaller scale) against the "Last Generation" climate activists who have been annoying everyone recently by glueing themselves to public trafficways and pieces of art, too. The Reichsbürger issue will continue, but the media machine is moving on, and it will be months or years before the political und judicial system has the fallout sorted.

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