The usual US legacy Leftist media organizations have been eagerly reporting this story for several hours now, competing to see which of them can squeeze in the terms "far right" and "extremists" the most number of times... but, so far at least, Fox News, Breitbart, and Sky News Australia haven't reported on it, and I'm having difficulty finding a more balanced report on it.

I'd be interested to hear Banshee One's take on this, or anyone else with knowledge of this developing story. As usual, the US blindly plows along with little knowledge or care of what else happens in the world outside our borders. European media seems to really be following this story and I'd like to know just how big this really is, as well as how accurate the reporting is verses the political hype.

If Russia was involved in a German coup attempt this would only serve to increase tensions in the region.

================

Alleged German far-right members named and detained as attempted coup plot revealed

By Euronews with AFP • 07/12/2022 - 22:05


An suspect, second right, is escorted from a police helicopter by police officers after the arrival in Karlsruhe, Germany, Wednesday, Dec. 7, 2022. - Copyright AP Photo/Michael Probst

Italian police detained on Wednesday morning an alleged member of the Reich Citizens movement, a far-right group that, according to investigators, allegedly sought to overthrow the German government in an armed coup.

The suspect is a 64-year-old German citizen and was arrested in a hotel in the Ponte San Giovanni area of Perugia.

According to the Italian police, the suspect is a former member of the German army's special corps.

The police reported the suspect will be extradited to Germany as soon as possible.

Wednesday also saw thousands of police officers carry out raids across much of Germany against suspected far-right extremists.

German federal prosecutors said some 3,000 officers conducted searches at 130 sites in 11 of Germany's 16 states. Officials said 25 people were detained.

While police raids against the far right are not uncommon in the country, the scale of the operation was unusual. German media described it as one of the country's largest police actions ever against extremists.

In addition to the raids in Germany and Italy, a suspected far-right extremist was also detained in the Austrian town of Kitzbuehel.

In Berlin, former Bundestag member, Birgit Malsack-Winkemann, was also arrested. Malsack-Winkemann has been a member of the far-right Alternative für Deutschland party since it was formed in 2013

Those arrested are accused of having formed "a terrorist group by the end of November 2021 at the latest, which had set itself the goal of overcoming the existing state order in Germany and replacing it with their own kind of state", a statement read.

The Reichsbuerger movement includes neo-Nazis, conspiracy theorists, and gun enthusiasts who reject the legitimacy of the modern German republic.

Its followers generally believe in the continued existence of the pre-World War I German Reich, or empire, under a monarchy and several groups have declared their own states.

Long dismissed as malcontents and oddballs, the Reichsbuerger has become increasingly radicalised in recent years and is seen as a growing security threat.

They allegedly planned to appoint one of the arrested suspects, identified by local media as an aristocrat and businessman Prince Heinrich XIII Reuss, as Germany's new leader after the coup.

Heinrich XIII had already sought to make contact with Russian officials to discuss Germany's "new state order" after the coup, prosecutors said.

There was, however "no indication that the contact persons responded positively to his request."

A Russian woman named only as Vitalia B., who was among those arrested on Wednesday, is suspected of having facilitated those contacts, prosecutors added.

The Russian embassy in Berlin said it did "not maintain contacts with representatives of terrorist groups or other illegal entities", according to a statement issued via Russian news agencies.

Edited: to add my emphasis in bold

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Modern Day Savage,

Likely an attack on Germans who want to keep Germany German. Seems to be the international playbook now.

This is the most high-profile occurrence so far related to the Reichsbürger scene which until a few years ago was mostly considered a bunch of harmless nutters. These folks generally believe that the German Reich didn't end in 1945 and the Federal Republic is an illegitimate front for a continued allied occupation regime; but the movement is very diverse, with several competing fantasy governments, monarchists, US-style "sovereign citizen" types, general-purpose conspiracy theorists, and plain Nazis. The scene has however really grown throughout recent crises through links and overlaps with Eurosceptic, anti-refugee and anti-COVID protest groups as well as survivalist circles, some of which are not just expecting and preparing for a system breakdown, but dream of bringing it about; and now pro-Russian types in the Ukraine war, as well as members of the right-wing AfD trying to tap the political potential.

Suspects include former AfD MP Birgit Malsack-Winkemann; Prince Heinrich XIII. Reuß of the former ruling house of Thuringia; a former parachute battalion commander who left the Bundeswehr in the 90s after he appropriated arms from former East German army stocks; a former special forces officer and retired full colonel who has popped up talking about "cleaning out Berlin" at Corona protests before; an active logistics SNCO serving with special forces staff; a former police detective fired last year, also for fantasizing about insurrection around Corona protests; and an AfD city councillor from Saxony.

As it looks so far, the plans of the conspirators seem to have typically been predicated on rather unsupported beliefs. Namely that seizing parliamentary buildings with a small armed group would trigger general public unrest, in which members of security forces would widely sympathize with the putschists; and that an alliance of foreign state actors would attack the German Deep State in the near future, after which the remaining government institutions would be mopped up with "homeguard companies".

It's not quite clear what was supposed to happen first, though reportedly the group had planned to strike in September already, but cancelled for unknown reasons. At any rate they appear to have labored under the usual fringe fallacies - that "everyone I know agrees with me" is statistic evidence that the silent majority supports your beliefs; that mature democracies are as succeptible to regime change by minority action as autocracies; and generally, believing in your own conspiracy theories.

The substance of the plot remains dubious. Members of the group had allegedly inspected Bundeswehr barracks to quarter "their" troops, and planned a transitional government led by a council chaired by Prince Heinrich, in which Malsack-Winkemann (a judge by profession) would have been in charge of justice. The good prince reportedly also tried to get in touch with the Russian government via a Russian associate named as Vitaliya B. (also arrested) to negotiate, in typical Reichsbürger parlance, a "real" peace treaty. By all accounts, the Russians never took them up on it though.

There are claims that the group had access to weapons and considerable financial means, but per initial reports only a grand total of one live firearm and various blank-firing guns were seized, as well as "thousands" of Euro in cash. Later statements said that 50 weapons were "established"; however, in German legalese that may include anything like air(soft) guns or knifes and axes. Mere "access" to firearms is not entirely rare in Germany, anyway. Malsack-Winkemann is a licensed sports shooter, which along with her knowledge of an access to Parliament as a former MP has led to speculation that she would have played a critical role in the planned attack. Supposedly that would also have involved use of an EMP to disable security systems, which sounds more like a half-baked movie plot though.

I wouldn't believe anything reported on the supposed coup...it's likely leftist manufacturing bad guys to either retain or expand their power.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
believing in your own conspiracy theories

Ah, yes. A friend and I were discussing that just recently.

I wonder how deeply they were infiltrated by the German security services and how much these moles egged them on, giving them confidence and possibly financial support?

Right out of the FBI playbook.

Growing up through the 70's, I remember there was this constant push-pull of the extremes when it came to internal insurgencies and terrorism within Germany, it was a low-intensity battlefield. If it wasn't the Red Army or, its various factions like Bader Meinhoff and Revolutionary Cells on the anarcho-socialism side, it was these neo-Nazi guys like Military Sport Group Hoffman and guys like this who yearned for a return of some form of ultra-conservativism.

With the rise and greater visibility of antifa, will be interesting if this is simply a reflection and we'll see an increase of such activities.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
This is the most high-profile occurrence so far related to the Reichsbürger scene which until a few years ago was mostly considered a bunch of harmless nutters. These folks generally believe that the German Reich didn't end in 1945 and the Federal Republic is an illegitimate front for a continued allied occupation regime; but the movement is very diverse, with several competing fantasy governments, monarchists, US-style "sovereign citizen" types, general-purpose conspiracy theorists, and plain Nazis.

...

First group that came to my mind. Thank you for taking the time and effort to post such a comprehensive explanation and give us the context we often lack from our own US media outlets.

quote:

The Reichsbuerger movement includes neo-Nazis, conspiracy theorists, and gun enthusiasts who reject the legitimacy of the modern German republic.

This was my favorite line from the 'Euronews' story...

If you can't connect the dots with comparison to what is going on here, there is no hope for you.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
Growing up through the 70's, I remember there was this constant push-pull of the extremes when it came to internal insurgencies and terrorism within Germany, it was a low-intensity battlefield. If it wasn't the Red Army or, its various factions like Bader Meinhoff and Revolutionary Cells on the anarcho-socialism side, it was these neo-Nazi guys like Military Sport Group Hoffman and guys like this who yearned for a return of some form of ultra-conservativism.

With the rise and greater visibility of antifa, will be interesting if this is simply a reflection and we'll see an increase of such activities.

Now that you mention it, as a kid back then I didn't understand who all these groups were, what they believed in, or what they were involved with, but I do recall the Red Army and Bader Meinhoff being mentioned back then.

With the period of world instability we seem to be entering into, I agree that the rise of these groups is likely.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
believing in your own conspiracy theories

Ah, yes. A friend and I were discussing that just recently.

Reminds me of a standup comedy clip I saw a little while back:

"So you're telling me you don't believe in any conspiracy theories? I understand not believing in all of them, or even most of them. But you don't believe in any? You think the government is just batting 1000 on telling the truth? That's a strong stance to take... I look at it like this: The government has the responsibility for all of its people. Whereas I'm a father, who's been given responsibility for just one son... And I lie to that little dude all the time!"

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

quote:

The Reichsbuerger movement includes neo-Nazis, conspiracy theorists, and gun enthusiasts who reject the legitimacy of the modern German republic.

This was my favorite line from the 'Euronews' story...

Yeah, funny how phrases like this keep popping up in various "news" reports, as well as government officials' comments. It's almost although it was orchestrated and coordinated or something.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

quote:

The Reichsbuerger movement includes neo-Nazis, conspiracy theorists, and gun enthusiasts who reject the legitimacy of the modern German republic.

This was my favorite line from the 'Euronews' story...

Yeah, funny how phrases like this keep popping up in various "news" reports, as well as government officials' comments. It's almost although it was orchestrated and coordinated or something.

Just like this statement from the attacks of the grid in the US-
“three men accused of plotting to shoot substations, or power grids, with powerful rifles across the country”.

“Powerful rifles”, eh?

Just understand that "far right" carries a little more meaning in certain other countries than it does here.
The truth is that far right or far left are opposite sides of the same coin. Usually a bunch of delusional losers and extremists that over-estimate the support of the overall population.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
Just understand that "far right" carries a little more meaning in certain other countries than it does here.
The truth is that far right or far left are opposite sides of the same coin. Usually a bunch of delusional losers and extremists that over-estimate the support of the overall population.

If the far right goes right far enough and the far left goes left far enough, they will eventually bump into each other.

The 'Far Right' is a VASTLY over-used term, and most often NOT even a remotely accurate descriptor, especially when used by the .gov and the legacy state media!

Almost 100 years since the last failed putsch.

quote:

Originally posted by kz1000:
Almost 100 years since the last failed putsch.

Almost 80. You're thinking of the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch, but are forgetting the 1944 attempted coup where conspirators bombed Hitler's planning room in an assassination attempt and then tried to seize control of the government in Berlin under the assumption Hitler was dead.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
Growing up through the 70's, I remember there was this constant push-pull of the extremes when it came to internal insurgencies and terrorism within Germany, it was a low-intensity battlefield. If it wasn't the Red Army or, its various factions like Bader Meinhoff and Revolutionary Cells on the anarcho-socialism side, it was these neo-Nazi guys like Military Sport Group Hoffman and guys like this who yearned for a return of some form of ultra-conservativism.

With the rise and greater visibility of antifa, will be interesting if this is simply a reflection and we'll see an increase of such activities.

The parallels between the 60s-80s period and the last 20 years have been evident for some time, though the chronology of developments doesn't quite match. In either case, things started with dissatisfaction among a non-trivial part of the population about the state of politics and democratic participation. In the 60s it was mostly part of the younger generation questioning atonement for and continuities from the Nazi era, leading to new social movements on issues like pacifism, feminism and environmentalism. Conversely, the root for the more recent unrest are effects of globalisation, the loss of old sincerities and identity, and generally among those of middle age. I like to say they're the ones who missed out on youthful rebellion in the "End of History" years after the Cold War, but obviously it's also the generation succeptible to fears of losing what they have already built up in life.

Fear of the future plays a role in either case, as well as some impulses from the US - the civil rights movement and anti-war protests of the 60s inspired a rebellious generation throughout the West, while American conspiracy thinking has gone mainstream among the discontent of the last two decades, again with a prominent streak of anti-war sentiment. Both movements also led to the formation of new political parties - the Greens in the 80s, the AfD in the 2010s - and had a side of radicals and militants. It's probably due to the generational difference that the young leftists of the 60s and 70s moved to terrorism first, parliamentarism later, while the new Right seems to entertain the idea of overthrowing the system by armed force only now. There was a German right-wing terror cell since the late 90s already, the National Socialist Underground, a two-man, one-woman group which shot and bombed a number of immigrants and a pair of police officers; but they only announced their existence after the two males killed themselves after a bank robbery gone wrong in 2011, so they failed at the PR angle of terrorism while active.

Neither left- nor right-wing terrorism ever posed a real threat to German post-war democracy, the shared delusions about inciting popular support for their respective revolutions notwithstanding. Of course lots of political hay is currently being made with this week's events in the usual contest of who has the better terrorist bogeyman to connect with the opposing camp; but as the professionals are pointing out, a group which may turn out to number in the two-digit, maybe low three-digit range cannot overthrow a stable democratic system. It will be interesting to see the eventual judicial fallout - there are various applicable sections in the criminal code which generally carry up to ten years of prison, but given that any plans must be shown to have been serious, none were actually acted upon, and the suspects are generally first-time offenders, results down the road may not match today's excitement.