Agree with this -- my $0.02 is not to buy in a place with an HOA. Too many folks who think they know what is best for you.

--K

I live in a gated community with an HOA. Fairly sizable, about 850 homes.

If our HOA ever tried to tell a Christian neighbor of mine that he was not permitted to have a "Jesus" display at Christmas, I would put at least two nice "Jesus" displays in my front yard, and defy the HOA to do anything about it.

I am Jewish, and I full well understand the ramifications of anybody attempting to suppress an individual's right to make a religious statement on a holiday that is central to the religion.

What, maybe the HOA would rather see a big cash register display, instead of a "Jesus" display?

I avoided properties with a HOA when I bought this house. Oddly enough the development next door does have a HOA. Many of the houses their look like Disney World during the holidays.

Weird.....

http://www.linkshoa.org/wp-con...-and-Regulations.pdf

quote:

19. Display of Christmas and similar holiday decorations, including exterior
decorative lights, shall be permitted only from Thanksgiving Day of each year until January 15 of
the following year. Display of decorations for other holidays, including, but not limited to,
Independence Day and Halloween, shall be permitted for a period beginning ten (10) days prior
to the date of the holiday and ending five (5) days after the date of the holiday. No lawn displays
or holiday banners are permitted.

When is the HOA "Forcing them to remove their Jesus sign"?

I think some people get too wound up from headlines and assumptions. Nobody is being forced to remove their Jesus sign. Not in this story at least.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
Weird.....

http://www.linkshoa.org/wp-con...-and-Regulations.pdf

quote:

19. Display of Christmas and similar holiday decorations, including exterior
decorative lights, shall be permitted only from Thanksgiving Day of each year until January 15 of
the following year. Display of decorations for other holidays, including, but not limited to,
Independence Day and Halloween, shall be permitted for a period beginning ten (10) days prior
to the date of the holiday and ending five (5) days after the date of the holiday. No lawn displays
or holiday banners are permitted.

When is the HOA "Forcing them to remove their Jesus sign"?

I think some people get too wound up from headlines and assumptions. Nobody is being forced to remove their Jesus sign. Not in this story at least.

Did you even read "the story"?

Here is directly from "the story",

quote:

Wivell and his wife, Lynn, were gobsmacked when they received an email a few days later from their homeowner association asking the couple to remove the display.

quote:

Did you even read "the story"?

Yes I did. Did you? Not only did I read it, but I researched it myself to come up with additional information.


From your story. The one you posted, and I read:

"So far, the Wivells have not been formally cited for the display, which they plan to keep up until Jan. 15 — a date set by the homeowner association for removal of holiday decorations."

So let's break that down. They were not cited, and received an e-mail saying their sign should be removed, which they are planning on doing by the 15th.

With me so far?

I posted the HOA rules above. ALL CHRISTMAS DECORATIONS MUST BE REMOVED BY JAN 15.

So far the HOA is not making them to do anything at all, other than abide by the existing rules. I already explained what happened. A busy body complained. The HOA is forced to "get involved". Their "getting involved" is a stern warning that does nothing and means nothing, but covers their ass. Period.

They aren't being singled out, and they are not being "forced" to do anything that anybody else living under that HOA isn't being "forced" to do. So far they have "been asked".

Now....if something else happens beyond an e-mail request asking nicely that may change thing. If they are cited or fined that would be "force". I suspect Jan 15 will come and go long before any real action is taken. If I had to guess, and if this is really considered an issue, the HOA will attempt to change their rules to clarify what is clearly a grey area for them. Their own rules, which I kindly linked to above does two opposing things. It prohibits signage, and allows Christmas (and other holiday) decorations. The problem is that some holiday decorations would plainly be in conflict with the prohibitions listed in the section along with signage.

I personally dislike HOAs. I also dislike local government that likes to institute the same silly types of rules. But the rules are the rules, and within those rules there are often grey areas and loopholes. As others have stated, if you don't want to play HOA games, don't live in HOA communities.

What's really going on here is a douche bag neighbor. If the HOA was the problem they would have been on this issue prior to receiving a complaint.

By the way, I have a history of fighting these types and winning. Based on the story alone and their own HOA rules I don't believe the HOA would win if they decided to start a fight. It's really quite simple. The HOA states that his Jesus sign "isn't in accordance with normal Christmas decorations". Too bad their own rules don't offer a definition of what "normal Christmas decorations" consist of. You can't say something is against the rules if it's not in the rules. Well you can, but you'll loose.

Im going to get bashed for this...

The quote says its made out of plywood, so Im assuming a homemade 4x8 sheet of plywood is in this guys front yard. I dont care whats on the sign but that has to look like shit. That is usually the point of a HOA. To keep things from looking like shit.

I hated the hoa we used to live at. The pricks removed the American flag from the Club House a few years back. I wrote a letter and made such a stink to the assholes at the magagement company that they replaced it a few weeks later. I hate community living, we moved out 3 yrs ago.

It's actually not bad looking as far as temporary decorations go. You may also notice the other unmentioned "sign" to the left of the entryway.

Looking into my crystal ball. If the HOA changes their rules to prohibit Christmas signs in the mulch bed, this same sign will be hanging in his front window next Christmas.

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:
Im going to get bashed for this...

The quote says its made out of plywood, so Im assuming a homemade 4x8 sheet of plywood is in this guys front yard. I dont care whats on the sign but that has to look like shit. That is usually the point of a HOA. To keep things from looking like shit.

I won't bash you.

If I were in the HOA, I would have written a letter to the complainant and indicated a copy would be given to the owner of the display and would simply state:

"Your complaint has been evaluated and given the spirit of the season, and the deadline which all decorations are to be removed, it is considered acceptable and will be permitted until the deadline.

Thank you for your helping us keep our neighborhood's standards in mind and Have a Very Merry Christmas!"

Seriously.

But then one can understand why I never made it far in politics, beyond the "Graham cracker and Mat School" milk monitor.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

Did you even read "the story"?

Yes I did. Did you? Not only did I read it, but I researched it myself to come up with additional information.


From your story. The one you posted, and I read:

"So far, the Wivells have not been formally cited for the display, which they plan to keep up until Jan. 15 — a date set by the homeowner association for removal of holiday decorations."

So let's break that down. They were not cited, and received an e-mail saying their sign should be removed, which they are planning on doing by the 15th.

With me so far?

I posted the HOA rules above. ALL CHRISTMAS DECORATIONS MUST BE REMOVED BY JAN 15.

So far the HOA is not making them to do anything at all, other than abide by the existing rules. I already explained what happened. A busy body complained. The HOA is forced to "get involved". Their "getting involved" is a stern warning that does nothing and means nothing, but covers their ass. Period.

They aren't being singled out, and they are not being "forced" to do anything that anybody else living under that HOA isn't being "forced" to do. So far they have "been asked".

Now....if something else happens beyond an e-mail request asking nicely that may change thing. If they are cited or fined that would be "force".

"Forced". You keep saying that word. Did the article even mention that word? I know I didn't, either. Why do you put your own word in someone else's article?
Btw, you didn't need to research the Jan 15 removal rule. It was already mentioned right there in the article.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
It's actually not bad looking as far as temporary decorations go. You may also notice the other unmentioned "sign" to the left of the entryway.

Agreed. Thats not bad. I retract my previous statement.

'cus nothing better brings out the true meaning of Christmas except "normal Christmas decorations"...

quote:

"Forced". You keep saying that word. Did the article even mention that word? I know I didn't, either. Why do you put your own word in someone else's article?

Perhaps that's because that's the only power the HOA has available to them. Force. Without force what do we have. You say they "want". So what? They may want world peace too. Is that a news story?

They can "want" in one hand, do something else in the other, and see which one fills up faster.

Without fines, citations, lawsuits, or any other type of "force", the story you posted isn't a story at all.

quote:

Btw, you didn't need to research the Jan 15 removal rule. It was already mentioned right there in the article. Wink

Sure I did. I wasn't interested in anybody's opinion. I wanted to read the HOA rules for myself. Plenty of stuff there that's pertinent to this non-story that isn't mentioned in the article.

From what I can read in the OP's article, and the MOA rules posted by a1abdj, IMO, it is all about whether the "display" is a Christmas decoration, or a sign, which has restrictions in the bylaws. The one neighbor who complained is an asshole though.

quote:

Signs that are permitted pursuant to this paragraph shall be placed only in the mulched areas in front of each Unit, and in no event shall any sign be larger than twenty (20) inches by thirty (30) inches.

quote:

Display of Christmas and similar holiday decorations, including exterior decorative lights, shall be permitted only from Thanksgiving Day of each year until January 15 of the following year. Display of decorations for other holidays, including, but not limited to, Independence Day and Halloween, shall be permitted for a period beginning ten (10) days prior to the date of the holiday and ending five (5) days after the date of the holiday. No lawn displays or holiday banners are permitted.

At least this HOA permitted the American flag, no other flag allowed

My former city actually had an ordinance that prohibited signs of a certain size, including political ones. <shrug> HOAs have restricted rules, hell my next house will likely be in an HOA. Just gotta read the fine print and see what one can live with.

Someone offended by something that small and temporary has too much free time.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:


'cus nothing better brings out the true meaning of Christmas except "normal Christmas decorations"...

I give up. I can't find Waldo.

quote:

My former city actually had an ordinance that prohibited signs of a certain size, including political ones. <shrug> HOAs have restricted rules, hell my next house will likely be in an HOA. Just gotta read the fine print and see what one can live with.

The Surpremes recently ruled in Reed V. Town of Gilbert.
Cities can regulate signs by size, location, type and so on. What they cannot do is consider the sign's content. Were this action by the town, the "Jesus" cannot be an issue.
Reed was a minister of a small church that met in various rental buildings. The church would set out signs directing people to the location.
The town sign code had numerous classifications of signs. The town classified the church signs and told the church they could not place their signs out less the 12 hours before the service. The church then had to remove then an hour after the service. That meant a 11:00AM service could not be announced before 11:00PM.
With a lack of commonsense the town finded Reed and refused to work out a compromise.
The SCOTUS ruled that cities can regulate signs. However, if someone had to READ the sign to regulate it, the code was wrong.

https://www.google.com/search?...rome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Tell them, "Wait until Easter ...."

We live in a newer community, with an HOA. But it doesn't take effect until 75% of the lots are sold, or something like that.

I have a 10ft illuminated cross on the hill in my backyard that can be seen from 2 miles away. It's not annoyingly bright, and it's above the roof line of all the houses, so it's not shining in any windows.

I have gotten several complements from neighbors down the street, but I know it is only a matter of time before it will be an issue.