Something could happen very soon. An official was quoted as saying that in the next three or four days, the conditions would be perfect for buddy-dive evacuation in terms of the water, the weather and the boys' health. We could see the first boy emerge by Saturday evening.

That would be splendid.

quote:

Originally posted by comet24:I wonder if they were diving a single tank.
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majority of the pictures I have seen show guys diving standard, single take, recreational set ups.

Question for the divers; According to the articles I've read, there is a narrow portion where they have to remove their equipment to get thru. How do you do that buddy diving with a novice?

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
Question for the divers; According to the articles I've read, there is a narrow portion where they have to remove their equipment to get thru. How do you do that buddy diving with a novice?

It is my understanding that they intend to give basic dive-training to these kids and their coach prior to leading them out. One of the things you learn in Level 1 Dive is how to remove your vest/tank and put it back on underwater.



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quote:

Originally posted by TigerDore:

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
Question for the divers; According to the articles I've read, there is a narrow portion where they have to remove their equipment to get thru. How do you do that buddy diving with a novice?

It is my understanding that they intend to give basic dive-training to these kids and their coach prior to leading them out. One of the things you learn in Level 1 Dive is how to remove your vest/tank and put it back on underwater.



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Thanks.

I'm hoping for the best, but honestly I don't get any 'warm fuzzies' about theses kids, some of who don't know how to swim, scubaing out of the cave. Odds are not good at them all surviving.

Sure, skills are learned in Level 1 Dive - in a comfortable pool, after a full meal, with nearly zero risk - not after 2 weeks of starvation, with oxygen getting low, with pretty much zero way out when things go bad.

JMO - just because the Thai General in charge says its rainbows and butterflies doesn't mean I believe him.

Sanitary conditions in that cave have to be deplorable by now. Where are they defecating and urinating? They haven't bathed in how long?

Drill a Goddamned hole big enough to pipe in fresh air. If they miss with the first hole, drill another. Once the drillers can figure out where to drill, go to town. Expand the shaft and bring them out through the roof, like they did with the Chilean miners.

Trying to bring children out through that water means certain death for some of them, if not all.

Yahoo reporting the "buddy dive" plan could start this weekend

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/prop...news-topstories.html

A proposed plan to rescue the boys soccer team trapped in a partly flooded cave in northern Thailand could launch as soon as this weekend, ABC News has learned.

According to an internal U.S. government report obtained by ABC News, the Royal Thai navy, supported by divers from the United Kingdom, the United States and other nations, has briefed Thai military leadership, interior ministry officials and the provincial governor on a proposed operation to evacuate the 12 boys and their coach from the miles-long cave in Chiang Rai province alongside experienced divers, in what is being called a “buddy dive.” Thailand’s prime minister will be briefed on the proposal Saturday morning local time.

Despite the risks, the accelerated timeline would take advantage of the children still having high oxygen levels within the cave complex, their relatively good health and also the fact that this would occur before the heavy rains are forecast to hit the region Sunday, which could raise water levels inside the cave and make a rescue mission even more precarious, according to the document.

A decision timeline was unknown.

If approved, the first phase of the plan -- which involves the ongoing process of staging equipment and clearing obstacles in the cave -- could be completed by 6 p.m. local time Saturday. The second phase -- which calls for dangerous and risky “buddy diving” of the soccer team, in which they would each be accompanied by an experienced diver out of the cave network -- could start as early as Sunday morning local time.

U.S. dive and medical personnel will support the proposed operation by staging equipment and setting up triage stations, but will not go beyond the third chamber inside the cave, according to the document.

Narongsak Osatanakorn, the Thai official in immediate charge of the rescue operation, told reporters at a news conference late Friday that the plan was to bring the boys and their coach out of the cave the same way they initially entered two weeks ago. The group is currently learning how to breathe underwater using dive equipment, he said.

During a news conference Saturday morning, Osatanakorn said they would pull back some of the rescuers inside the cave in an effort to preserve oxygen levels.

"We want to keep the headcount minimal, but we'll always have four people with the kids and we'll work hard to bring as many oxygen tanks into that area as we can," he told reporters. "We have experienced a lot of people fainting inside."

The recent death of a former member of the Royal Thai navy inside the cave who was working as a volunteer rescuer has hindered some progress that was already underway. Saman Gunan lost consciousness underwater during an overnight operation delivering extra air tanks inside the cave, along the treacherous route divers take to get to the trapped soccer team. He could not be revived and was confirmed dead early Friday morning.

Gunan, 38, formerly served in the Royal Thai navy’s Underwater Demolition Assault Unit, colloquially known as the Thai navy SEALs. His death marked the first fatality in the operation to rescue the group and underscored the dangers of navigating through the cave underwater, even for those who have experience.

"We will learn from our mistakes and try not to repeat them again," Osatanakorn said. "I will have to use the word 'try' here because I cannot make a commitment that something like this won't happen again. We can only use the words 'try' and 'do our best.'"

A planned operation to potentially “buddy dive” the group out of the cave, which the United States was going to support by pre-positioning air tanks in the seventh chamber, was cancelled due to the Gunan’s death and the associated risks, according to the internal U.S. government report.

A plan to install an oxygen cable in the chamber also had to be abandoned due to difficulties in routing the cable through the cave’s labyrinth of chambers and narrow passageways.

In the meantime, crews continued drilling into the south side of the cave complex on Friday to reduce the water level. It’s estimated to take an additional 12 to 18 hours to penetrate approximately 200 meters of rock. Drilling on the north side was suspended, as engineers and geologists work to find an alternate location closer to the stranded group.

According to the document, pumping operations have not been able to significantly lower the water level deep within the cave network. Rescue crews have assessed that the ongoing effort to pump water out from the main entrance of the cave has reached a point where it’s becoming less and less effective, and placing pumps further inside the cave -- beyond the 800 meter mark, where they currently are -- does not seem possible.

Medical assessments indicated the trapped children have good oxygen levels, with all of them having oxygen saturation levels of 95 percent and above. The oxygen level within the cave was most recently measured at 17.5 percent. Though higher than the previous reading, it is still significantly below the normal range of 20 to 21.5 percent.

Rescue crews have also determined that it’s impractical to bring into the cave the necessary amounts of food and supplies that are required to sustain the boys and their coach before the oxygen levels drop to fatal levels or the water level rises. Divers can only bring in small amounts of supplies at a time.


The U.S. Embassy and the Royal Thai Navy continue to receive offers from Xylem and Elon Musk to provide technical support in the operation. Both Xylem and Musk plan to send engineering experts to be integrated with the proposed operation Saturday.

Isn't there such a thing as a "full face" dive mask (probably bad terminology on my part), i.e., a mask that you don't have to have a regulator in your mouth. This has to be taking MASSIVE planning well beyond my comprehension...

I just don't see "buddy diving" working. I don't. I consider myself a fish in the water, grew up in the ocean and the pool. I got Padi open water certified (lowest level) about a decade ago and let me tell you, I don't care how comfortable you are in the water, learning to breath when your whole body and mind is telling you to hold your breath is a whole 'nother story. It took me a day to get comfortable with breathing underwater and I was doing it for fun! Add in the stress of the current situation? Ugg.

No, this will not turn out well.

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:
Isn't there such a thing as a "full face" dive mask (probably bad terminology on my part), i.e., a mask that you don't have to have a regulator in your mouth. This has to be taking MASSIVE planning well beyond my comprehension...

Yes and from what I’ve heard they plan on using them.

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
Question for the divers; According to the articles I've read, there is a narrow portion where they have to remove their equipment to get thru. How do you do that buddy diving with a novice?

My guess is and it’s just a guess the kids will have a full face mask, maybe fins but likely no tank. There will be breathing via a long hose connected to the rescue team diver.

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
Question for the divers; According to the articles I've read, there is a narrow portion where they have to remove their equipment to get thru. How do you do that buddy diving with a novice?

Cave divers use a spare regulator with a longer hose than an open water diver would use. This extra hose allows the diver to remove and replace their gear while the person on the spare regulator stays out of the way as well as follow far enough behind to be out of the diver's way in tight areas.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
I’m surprised we’re not hearing more about a surface rescue. The water exit seems fraught with massive dangers and limited success. Bore a hole and yank em out already.

I saw some video last night showing teams of cavers walking and searching the area above the cave looking for chimney's that broke the surface. They would then descend into them looking to see if they were an alternative exit. So far, no luck.

quote:

Originally posted by SpinZone:

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
Question for the divers; According to the articles I've read, there is a narrow portion where they have to remove their equipment to get thru. How do you do that buddy diving with a novice?

Cave divers use a spare regulator with a longer hose than an open water diver would use. This extra hose allows the diver to remove and replace their gear while the person on the spare regulator stays out of the way as well as follow far enough behind to be out of the diver's way in tight areas.

Interesting. Thank you.

I have read that there is a group searching for an existing opening to the surface, based on reports that the kids inside have heard sounds like talking and engines. Probably not a lot of hope with that effort, but I'm sure they are trying anything that might help.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
I have read that there is a group searching for an existing opening to the surface, based on reports that the kids inside have heard sounds like talking and engines. Probably not a lot of hope with that effort, but I'm sure they are trying anything that might help.

flashguy

Someone once said "Prayer is not a good strategy". In this case, it may be.

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:
Question for the divers; According to the articles I've read, there is a narrow portion where they have to remove their equipment to get thru. How do you do that buddy diving with a novice?

From what I have seen, this restriction is dry, not wet. Which makes getting them out a tad easier.

No-Mount diving (as it is called) is a very unique style of cave diving that requires lots and lots of experience to do it right and very specialized equipment.

As to the use of Full Face Masks (FFM), there are some pros but a lot of cons to using them. In this instance, considering the kids inexperience, probably best to use them. If you want to see what they are using, google: Interspiro AGA Full Face Mask. Pretty much the standard in FFM's for years in the recreational/public safety arena.

Given the kids inexperience, not to mention a lot of helping hands spaced around this complex, a buddy-dive method is about as good an option as they have. Each kid will follow a diver, the diver will carry the tank and gauges, the kids will breathe off a second longer hose following close behind...while getting a face full of feet/fin. A teether is usually attached between each other however the obstacles and small areas may preclude that, instead a safety line may be strung along the route so the kids can simply follow the line and take the strain off the air hose. Without having to carry/pull their own bottles, it'll simplify things for an already overwhelming situation.

They'll put them in wetsuits however, in a cave environment, the wetsuits may be a problem as they provide buoyancy. Seeing how thin/small these kids are, they'll likely pop-up to the ceiling of a space when instead they really need to be down near the bottom where the passageway is. Weight-belts for each kid. Masks will likely be the standard variety, getting the right fit is the only challenge, afterwards is getting them comfortable being in the water. Considering how cold it is and the length of time they've been in that confined space, practice time in the water is probably pretty limited. Exhaustion at this point is a real danger, nevertheless the survival instinct is pretty strong.

There's a lot of mental prep for these kids, coming from a relatively rural 2/3rd world area this is pretty overwhelming. Hopefully their handlers have worked out simple routines and methods that will help them stay focused.