quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I did not watch the vid. No need.

I don't see how you can draw any conclusions without watching the video. Poor procedures or no, the fact is that the guy told the officers that he had a gun in his shoe, then put his hand on the pistol of one of the officers and wouldn't let go. I'd ask you how you think that- lacking a time machine- the officers had any choice but to take action, but you wouldn't be able to give us any sort of a coherent answer, since you won't even examine the evidence, which consists of the incident played four different times from each of the four officer's body cameras. The guy was all but begging to get shot, and that's what happened. He called it. His choice to die. The officers were just trying to process a run-of-the-mill DUI. The escalation was his. If he had cooperated, he'd be alive right now. If you want to assign blame, he's the one.

I have restrained on replying, as what I type usually is taken differently than how I wish it to be read. I have reread this and hope to not end up in the doghouse for my reply.

I watched the video. The guy was an idiot. Suicide by Cop as far as I’m concerned.

I understand ORC's reason for not watching and drawing a conclusion. And ORC's conclusion is damn accurate.

No excuses.
Many if us have been [intoxicated]
The outcome shouldn’t have been this as being in custody shouldn’t end with a bullet to the head.

It's a horrible outcome for everyone

I don’t think there is a need to see the video if you read the last two pages.

Surely this guy had it coming. But damn, the police shouldn’t be armed in that room. Too close quarters. Too many humans in such a small closet. It’s a recipe for problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Beancooker:
The outcome shouldn’t have been this as being in custody shouldn’t end with a bullet to the head.

We'd have to possess the power of resurrection in order to find out the answer why the guy made the police shoot him.

Rather curious things, these latest responses in this thread. Thank heavens that juries aren't so dismissive of evidence.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, have you reached a feeling in this trial?"

"Yes, Your Honor, we feel that this whole thing is sad and shouldn't have happened."

"So feel you all?"

"So feel we all."

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the court thanks you for your feelings. You are dismissed. Please hug the defendant on the way out."

What is it that's motivating these comments? Disdain for the police? Identifying with the dead guy? You won't view the evidence that puts you right in the room and from four different angles, audio and video, but you've reached a conclusion, based upon the comments of others- with whom you disagree. I must be missing something. Someone surely is.

I watched the video.
The shooting is ABSOLUTELY justified.
I would have done the same damn thing as the officer with his finger in the trigger. There is no way I would let some scumbag get the gun of my coworker.

Disdain for the police? Couldn’t be farther from the truth. I respect them as much as I do the people who serve in the military. There are few I hold in higher regard.

What motivates this, is the thought that once you are handcuffed, and in custody, that probable situations like trying to get an officers sidearm, wouldn’t be an option.
Many officers have posted in this thread that the officers in the video/room shouldn’t have been armed.
I tend to agree with that.

That said, you want to try to take the sidearm of an officer, you damn well should be prepared to die for your imbecilic choice. I just believe that the choice should have been removed from being able to be made by someone who is inebriated.

Well, jump in your Time Machine, H.G. Wells, and make the situation right. Warn the officers that they shouldn't be armed around this guy.

What the Hell??

It doesn’t even have to be there. It could still be at the place they arrested him. The cops will still be armed there. If he made his choice then and grabbed a gun, he’d still be dead. I’ve fought with many a cuffed person who decided they didn’t want to go to jail anymore and that’s usually right after they get cuffed.

Nightmare. I feel the for the officer's Family and his fellow officers. Tragedy.

For me it is "in the house" that is the key to it should not have happened.

I understand it. I could see it happening anywhere but inside the station. But it did because "he" was drunk out of his mind and grabbed for a gun and now he is dead. Because he did that. I got that.

Now is a jury going to watch that video and award somebodies a shit ton of taxpayer money, you better believe it. Why? because in a police station something like that should never happen.

I still don't see what you're driving at. The circumstances existed as the circumstances existed. Given these existing circumstances, the guy made the worst possible choices and died for his foolishness. Civil suit or not, what happened is what happened. The idiot forced the issue and got what he was begging for.

That's all I got.

Yup. Unfortunate situation, terrible result, but almost (if not entirely) of the decedent’s making.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Three officers and the dead guy in that tiny room. What a cluster fuck. When the officer says "He's got my gun" what he actually means is that the guy had his hand on the officer's gun. The retention holster saved the day, but, yes, while I am not familiar with procedures when processing someone who has been arrested, it seems that having no guns in the room would be a sound safety practice.

And, y'know, I don't think this can be blamed on alcohol. Have you ever been so drunk that you would pull this kind of stunt? And have you ever had a police officer tell you "You're about to die, my friend"? You would immediately cease your actions and begin cooperating to the fullest.

Drunk or sober, that guy was on the highway to Hell.

Pretty much spot on.

First off, as a "best practice" there are ABSOLUTELY NO GUNS ALLOWED IN THE BOOKING AREA. None.

'cause by the point everyone disarms the bad guy has been searched multiple times, by multiple people, to satisfaction. At least then it is a fist fight and help is coming... as opposed to a fight over a gun.

I don't know the context of this video, so I wont' critique the tactics and practices of the officers/department... Second, I'm aware that even the best laid plans can be tested by a special kind of dumb ass, and a guy that decided to fight when surrounded by multiple officers already at the jail, is a special kind of dumb ass...

But this seems to have multiple forms of silly on it...


ALL OF THAT SAID... THERE IS STILL ONLY ONE PERSON HERE THAT CHOSE THEIR FATE, and that is the dead guy. HE CHOSE to do whatever got him arrested. HE CHOSE to fight the police. So whatever happened, he at bare minimum shares at least 51% of the fault.

Kevin

I think they are not in the jail. Their breathalyzer is in city hall?

When we closed our jail they moved our machine into a room smaller than that. We’re all still armed. I advised against it but no one listens to me. So I switched tactics and dropped the safety issue and brought up sitting a drunk in the tiny room messes up the air quality and will cause issues with the machine. Still no go. Whatever. 190 weeks and counting

ORC, read your own cut.

did Mr.handcuffs actually obtain an officers gun ?

did the officer who lost his gun shoot the shooter?

did Mr. handcuffs shoot himself?

did another officer draw and shoot Mr. handcuffs ? because he had the officers gun ?

When the police officer put the guy into a headlock, the guy managed to put one of his hands on the butt of the officer's pistol. The pistol remained holstered throughout the struggle because of the type of holster the officer was wearing. These are known as 'retention holsters', which require a specific sequence of motions to release the pistol from the holster. You can try all day to yank a pistol in a straight draw from a level 4 retention holster, but you're not getting it out. You could pull so hard that you manage to fracture and dislodge the grip plates and the pistol would remain holstered.
However, the drunk guy could have accidentally fumbled onto the proper drawing sequence- which may- depending upon the holster manufacturer may be something like "push the pistol down slightly, then rock the muzzle forward slightly, then draw the pistol." They couldn't tase the guy because he was touching the officers struggling with him, and they were touching him, and if they had tased him, they, too would be tased and then, it would have been Saturday night in Sioux City.

Years ago, I had a police officer tell me that he was struggling with a drunk in a bar. He pulled his night stick and cracked the drunk across both of his knees with all his might. You or I would have hit the floor, writhing in pain and most likely would become suddenly fully compliant.
But, the officer said this drunk just stood there and smiled at him. So, brute force is off the table when someone is that intoxicated.

And that leaves the final option, which was delivered at point-bank range by one of the other officers, against the right side of the dead guy's face, where the mandible meets the skull. The bullet traversed his skull, probably cutting the brain stem, and then exited out the other side of the guy's head, producing instantaneous death.

You and I, bendable, we should be so lucky as to pass into eternity that quickly. That guy didn't feel a thing. Not a single thing. It was just 'good night, sweetheart.'

I don't see that the officer had any choice but to shoot the guy. The only other option would have been to have struggled more with the drunk, thus giving him additional time to stumble upon the correct drawing sequence from the retention holster, and had he gotten the pistol wrested from the holster, what do you think he might have done next? He would have pulled the trigger. Someone would have gotten hit.

This thread has been an interesting read. I haven't watched the video yet. Just how graphic is it?

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
This thread has been an interesting read. I haven't watched the video yet. Just how graphic is it?

Not really, it's pretty brief with only some blood on the ground in the final video. It basically rolls through all officers cameras who were there.

It is not as graphic as some PG movies.

Watch and learn. Yeah a "real" person dies, but then again, life deals in reality and lessons are often harsh.

Pay attention to the point, and not the distractions fed on emotion.

-Sierra Mike, out.

Actively trying to take a LEO's firearm, even if it's in a retention holster and they're currently unsuccessful in removing it, justifies deadly force.

It clearly shows that their intent is to seriously injure or kill the officer(s), and they are clearly attempting to access the means to do so.

Same as someone shouting "I'll fucking kill you" while trying to pull a gun out from their waistband.