quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Even without the recovered ID, my first question was how the murderers thought they would get away with something like that. In the US any such stop/contact would involve the police notifying their dispatch with vehicle information, to include license plate. Any idea if that’s the norm in Germany?

It’s possible they did call the plate in and got a stolen vehicle reported but didn’t expect so much more. Also possible it was a stolen vehicle that wasn’t reported yet.

Based on my (fading) recollections of Germany, it seems that wild game was more commonly offered in restaurants in general than in the US, for example. Is poaching a lucrative endeavor there?

I'm not sure if it's lucrative, but probably yes, because hunting is heavily regulated and a bit of an elite occupation in Germany. Not only do you need a minimum 120-hour class and insurance to get a license, but also either individually or jointly own or have a lease of a hunting area, or permission by someone who does; you can't just walk into the woods during open season and shoot any available game. An American ex-fiancé of a cousin got it in his head to do just that for their engagement, with bow and arrow to boot; legally speaking he was lucky to be unsuccessfull. Even collecting parts of animals from someone else's hunting ground without permission (antlers, feathers, bones etc.) is technically poaching.

That's in part because Germany is densely settled with little dwelling grounds for wild game compared to countries like the US. But history also plays a role; like in most of Europe, hunting was a privilege of the landed aristocracy from the late Middle Ages to the mid-19th century, who took a dim view of commoners hunting "their" animals even if it was out of existential need to get some food on the table or protect their crops. On the flip side, over time poachers were popularly glorified as rebels against authority, even if they were really just professional slaughterers, mostly trapping rather than shooting, and often with no qualms about killing officials who got in their way.

It has been suggested that the German and Austrian Heimatfilm most popular around the mid-20th century and frequently set in some 19th-century mountains is the local equivalent of the American Western, with the stock characters of poacher and the Förster chasing him to the eventual showdown replacing the bandit (horse/cattle thief?) and lawman. Unfortunately as this incident shows, that tradition isn't entirely dead, though the visibly disturbed prosecutor at yesterday's press conference said that the image of Germany shouldn't include people killing police officers on the road with hunting guns (read: this ain't the Wild West after all).



There are in fact some reminders of that history in German gun law which bans take-down rifles and weapon-mounted lights primarily because they were used by poachers in their illicit trade (the latter to dazzle game at night). OTOH, use of silencers has recently been liberalized including for hunting use, out of the very noise abatement reasons which made them attractive to that ilk.

I could add that the Palatinate where this happened has been a historically poor region with a tradition of inhabitants seeking employment elsewhere and contributing early and heavily to German emigration, not least to America. Without much in the way of industry, the main trades remained agriculture and handcrafting, which became increasingly incompetitive with other countries in the course of international trade liberalization. Being about the most Western part of Germany, during the Cold War the area served as NATO's "unsinkable aircraft carrier" with a heavy presence of German and allied armed forces, chiefly American. Drawdown since the 90s had a considerable economic impact despite military-civilian conversion efforts; still, US and German forces remain among the top three regional civilian employers. You'll find some municipalities with the highest debt and unemployment rates in Germany here, even including the post-socialist East.

Add the nearby French and Luxembourgian borders which invite easy crossing between different jurisdictions, and there might in fact be a higher propensity for going outside the law. There was another rare occurrence for Germany three years ago, a home invasion at the family place of a US Army civilian who had just moved to Landstuhl. Seems he unwisely verified the content of a safe in the presence of staff from the moving company, and someone told someone who told three local brothers with some criminal history, who decided to pay a visit with a French accomplice. Of course one of them got stabbed to death with a kitchen knife in self-defense by the would-be victim for their trouble, and the rest went to prison with nothing to show for it.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
hunting is heavily regulated

Thanks for all that. I was aware of some of the laws and other issues relating to hunting in Germany, but not all. When I was there a fellow US GI friend went through the process of getting a hunting license. As I recall the length of training wasn’t that long, but it was in the 1980s, so I can imagine things have changed. In Colorado and possibly other states where big game hunting is popular, poaching is an issue that sometimes makes the news, and there are laws that are specifically intended to deter poaching.

As you say, conflicts between “poachers” and landowners and those hired to regulate hunting in Europe weren’t limited to Germany. I know at least one traditional Scottish song that recounts one such encounter.

I’m curious about the print you posted. According to the Internet translator, Wildschütz is “wildlife guard,” or what we would most commonly refer to as game warden. Was he the one who is depicted as being killed and being found by a colleague?

A few years back, in Wisconsin a Hmong hunter from MN shot and killed 6 people in a dispute over hunting on private property. I had a buddy who was a Conservation officer, and he HATED dealing with the Hmong hunters because he said they had little to no concept of public vs private land and even less about the value of human life.

Some folks take hunting very seriously

Hmong hunter kills 6

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
I’m curious about the print you posted. According to the Internet translator, Wildschütz is “wildlife guard,” or what we would most commonly refer to as game warden. Was he the one who is depicted as being killed and being found by a colleague?

That's probably the translator mixing up Schütze (shooter, gun-/rifle-/bowman) and Schützer (protector, guard). As you will probably assume, there's a common root to both. So Wildschütze is literally "wild (game) shooter", an obsolescent term for poacher; modern use is just Wilderer.

I think even the Robin Hood mythos includes some elements of poaching as part of the "taking from the rich, giving to the poor" theme, and outlaw commoners standing up to the tyranny of feudalism. In romantic German lore, the poacher is generally a tragic mirror image of the ranger chasing him; frequently the story's love interest is torn between both, until one kills the other.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Suspicious vehicle, dead game...Poaching?

You'd think they'd have radioed the plate of the vehicle to dispatch prior getting out and approaching the 'suspicious vehicle'. That's kinda' LE 101, so I assume they're not sharing that info with the public just yet.

I wonder if there's a 'migrant enclave' in the vicinity...

I worked side by side with the Polizei for 3 years. They are very professional and very tough dudes/ladies but their attitude is somewhat relaxed for the most part. Guns are highly regulated there so most of them don’t even think it’s possible that this will happen to them.
There’s a false sense of security and lack of experience in oh shit moments like this. At least that’s the impression I got. That being said you really don’t want to fuck with the Polizei. I’d gladly kick an American cop in the nuts before I started shit with a German cop.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
That's probably the translator mixing up Schütze (shooter, gun-/rifle-/bowman) and Schützer (protector, guard). As you will probably assume, there's a common root to both.

Thanks for the clarification.
Is it a game keeper/warden/guard who is depicted as being killed, evidently by a poacher?

No, the title translates to "The Poacher's End“, so the man standing over the body seems to be the representative of the law. Apparently from an 1894 painting.

Ah, okay. You did say that, and I should have read your previous comment more closely.
I turned on the autotranslate for the video you linked above and even I know enough German that some of the results struck me as comical.

Well I wouldn't trust any algorithm to get the Bavarian accent in the clip correct any more than the "jive" from "Airplane!“ (which was dubbed over in thick Bavarian for the German version as the equivalent deep southern dialect).

Meanwhile in the current case investigators are reported to have found "tons" of frozen meat and book entries over 40,000 Euro received just from last September to early January at the main suspect's place(s), which I guess answers the question whether it's lucrative business (particularly considering he probably didn't pay taxes for it). The accomplice maintains he was only hired to help carry the game and never fired a gun at either animals or cops, which was allegedly backed up by a test for residue on his hands. Neither of them seems to have been hit by the return fire of the officer who was killed with what is reported to have been as a single-shot rifle; though as anywhere, journalists can't be assumed to get such details right.

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
I was stationed ar Ramstein AB in Germany in the late 1970s, and back then all the cops carried MP5s. They'd levy a fine for traffic violations and you paid them directly. They had no sense of humor.

flashguy

It’s literally still like that

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
No, the title translates to "The Poacher's End“, so the man standing over the body seems to be the representative of the law. Apparently from an 1894 painting.

The scruffy clothing of the late poacher, compared with the spiffy outdoor stuff of the warden is the clue here.

quote:

Originally posted by Pyker:
A few years back, in Wisconsin a Hmong hunter from MN shot and killed 6 people in a dispute over hunting on private property. I had a buddy who was a Conservation officer, and he HATED dealing with the Hmong hunters because he said they had little to no concept of public vs private land and even less about the value of human life.

Some folks take hunting very seriously

Hmong hunter kills 6

SKS, IIRC.

https://www.stripes.com/theate...-sights-4588487.html

Defendant in slayings of German police officers reportedly used illegal military technology in poaching operation

BY ALEXANDER RIEDEL• STARS AND STRIPES • FEBRUARY 3, 2022

KAISERSLAUTERN, Germany — One of the men accused of gunning down two German police officers Monday during a routine traffic patrol near the U.S. Army installation in Baumholder has had numerous brushes with the law, prosecutors said Thursday.

The suspects, Andreas Johannes Schmitt, 38, of Spiesen-Elversberg, and his alleged accomplice, a 32-year-old identified only as Florian V., are in jail pending trial.

Law enforcement officials said Tuesday that the pair shot the officers at about 4:20 a.m. on a road near Kusel to evade arrest on suspicion of poaching.

Florian V.’s lawyer, Christian Kessler, said his client had told police that Schmitt alone was responsible for the officers’ killings, according to an interview with the German news magazine Focus Online.

“The investigations so far have not refuted his statements that he did not shoot,” Kessler said.

Stefan Orthen, a Kaiserslautern chief prosecutor, said Tuesday that the state assumes that both men fired a weapon and that they are a significant flight risk. A magistrate judge denied Florian V.’s request for release.

Meanwhile, local hunters and German news outlets have painted Schmitt as a prolific poacher.

Police investigators found frozen meat in storage belonging to Schmitt and sale records at his home that showed revenue of 40,000 euros between September and January, the news magazine Der Spiegel reported.

Amid the search for the suspects, Dieter Mahr, the president of the Rheinland-Pfalz Hunting Association, sent out a WhatsApp voice message Monday saying that Schmitt hunts with military equipment, the newspaper Die Rheinpfalz reported Wednesday.

Schmitt continued his illicit hunting in the woodland region between Kaiserslautern and the French border using night vision and targeting sights, technology that is outlawed for hunters in Germany, Mahr said.

During a rabbit hunt, Schmitt fired his shotgun and injured a fellow hunter in the chest, neck and eyes, the state prosecutor’s office in Saarbruecken told Stars and Stripes on Thursday.

Schmitt did not receive a jail sentence but paid the injured hunter 5,000 euro in compensation and was sentenced to a 4,500 euro fine for negligence in 2006. The sentence will not be used in the current case as it is no longer part of Schmitt’s criminal record.

Schmitt also was awaiting trial in Saarbruecken district court on charges that he embezzled government-mandated health insurance contributions of 100,000 euros.

Moreover, he was accused of staging a robbery in 2019 at a bakery he owned in an attempt to defraud his insurance company of 50,000 euros, the state prosecutor’s office said. Schmitt denied the accusations at the time. The charges were combined with the fraud charges and are pending.

The shooting Monday on the K22 triggered a major manhunt, which included helicopters and dogs. German police special forces arrested the men at about 5 p.m. Monday.

The area of the shooting is known for its animal traffic. Red deer, wild sheep and boar find refuge on the nearby military training areas of Baumholder, where hunting is off limits.

Die Rheinpfalz reported that Florian V. had been fined for lesser offenses ranging from traffic violations to wire fraud.

The double homicide in Rheinland-Pfalz sent shockwaves throughout the country.

“It is not part of our idea of Germany that somebody starts shooting with hunting weapons in the open road just because they were suspected of poaching,” Kaiserslautern lead prosecutor Udo Gherig told reporters Tuesday. “That’s why this case is so disturbing.”

The state is home to the largest U.S. military community in Europe, with tens of thousands of U.S. personnel and family members at Ramstein Air Base and several Army installations.

On Friday, Rheinland-Pfalz police will hold a statewide moment of silence at 10 a.m. in memory of the two officers, a 24-year-old police academy trainee and her 29-year-old colleague.

quote:

investigators are reported to have found "tons" of frozen meat and book entries over 40,000 Euro received just from last September to early January

Dang. That's about $46,000 in 5 months. Potentially six figures a year in game meat sales. Pretty brisk business.

Any idea what military “targeting sights” are?

Sounds like a lighter version of the root cause of crime in this country - a career criminal not being in jail where he belonged a long time ago.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Any idea what military “targeting sights” are?

An IR laser to shoot under NODs, maybe? Or perhaps a thermal scope? The latter sounds more plausible from a hunting perspective, I suppose.

I don't know the specifics here, though upon checking I find that night vision equipment is legal in hunting as long as it's used only for observation, but not as a weapon-mounted sight. The reason is the same as for the ban on weapon-mounted lights - it violates the rules of fair chase. Optical night glasses are okay, but "hunting light" is generally considered limited to 90 minutes after sunset and before sunrise. Now by latest reports 22 deer were found in the suspect's van; that must have taken some time.

Official memorial act for the slain officers today. RLP state premier Malu Dreyer took care to condemn the inevitable hate comments which cropped up over the last days. Police agencies across the country observed a minute of silence; saw the flags set to half-staff at the precinct near my office on the way to work this morning. There's a busy #ZweiVonUns (TwoOfUs) hashtag on twitter.