quote:

Originally posted by reflex/deflex 64:
Because, my mom. It’s what dad had on the shelf when he passed away. Mom uses that as example of what she must stock. She asks for it so it gets restocked at the store the oil maker sees it is still selling. It ain’t broken why fix it.

Her son hasn’t bought conventional oil since 1981. Dad sludged 2 motors to death in that time. Filled them to the top with kerosene let them sit a week did it again and traded. Honey Badger of oil change

Well for certain generations of no-maintenance type working men, that would have been a thing to do.

Honey Badger of an oil change. That's the best description I could imagine. Ha !

quote:

Originally posted by Cassandra:
Slight train of thought. How many miles between oil changes are our learned members running these days using the newest full and blended synthetics? I am running full synth Pennzoil and trying to go 8000 but wife still only wants 5000.
Thank you...

If you study the latest recommendations by the best shop owners and mechanics on the net, you'll find that the manufacturer recommendations of changes between 8 and 10k (or more) are NOT the recommendations of the engineers who designed those motors. Engines in new vehicles are being damaged with 0-xx wt full syn at 10k interval oil changes under normal driving conditions, and sludged with full syn for longer intervals. The shops are telling all their customers for all gasoline cars to change every 5k. I've been doing that for quite a while now, and will continue to do so into the future.

So this time your wife was right, but you're going to have to tell her she was right.

But if you trade out new cars every three years, you'll be ok. But if you're running a new car with 0-XX oil, you won't get 200k from your engine, or 300k regularly from normally aspirated engines running 5-30 full syn top tier oils.

Eventually the car makers will go back to what the engineers told them to do, and not run 0-xx oils, but only after customers stop paying 65k for new vehicles which need new engines before 100k.

It turns out that the 0-xx wt full syn oil are having shear failure after 5k miles, because the shear protection in a 0-x wt oil is from the anti-shear additives, instead of a heavier base oil, the latter of which hold up longer for the given miles. These anti-shear additives are basically breaking down early. I would call that an oops, were it not for the manufacturers selling $65k+ vehicles more frequently right after the engines blow up soon after the warranty expires.

As they say when looking for the bad guys, follow the money.

Thank you Wrightd. I will keep the changes at 5000 and tell my wife she was right. The former immediately, the latter sometime later, maybe next year...

That was good. Ha !!

A comment above speaks of anti-shear additives. Let’s talk about the formulation components. A multigrade engine oil has been made with viscosity index improvers (VII) for decades. These are polymers that are liquid state over a wide range of temperatures. They are typically of three chemical structures, each having a resistance to structure breakage depending on many factors. Some formulation use one type, and some another.

Engine oils must pass so many different tests, the VII chosen is evaluated carefully in fuel economy, oxidation, film thickness, and resistance to structure breakage. This test is called the shear stability test.

All credentialed engine oils meet viscosity requirements after the shear stability test. So, there is no difference in requirements just because the viscosity grade is lower. If it is a 30, 20, or 16 weight oil it remains in that grade after the test.

These polymers take years to create and bring to production. Many are decades old. And, the 16 weight has less polymer than the 30 weight. So, with less polymer present it shears less physically and the oil remains in grade.

Another plug for Motor Oil Geek on YouTube. I’ve learned so much from his videos.

Again, his vids bust myths and ‘conventional’ wisdom on the matter of engine lubrication using science. He may just change your allegiance to an oil type or oil brand.

His father was a race car driver, and he, himself, works for an engine ring manufacturer.

The Motor Oil Geek is a personal and professional friend of mine. He and I worked on high performance lubricants for a few years. His current business is https://www.speediagnostix.com

You can trust his very informed opinions and data-driven decisions.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 4MUL8R,

quote:

Originally posted by Cassandra:
Slight train of thought. How many miles between oil changes are our learned members running these days using the newest full and blended synthetics? I am running full synth Pennzoil and trying to go 8000 but wife still only wants 5000.

This is car specific. Some cars are easy on oil. Some are not.

I'll use an example. The Honda 2.4L is a very long lasting, very durable, well built engine, that calls for an oil change every 10,000 miles. It has a 5 quart sump. And with synthetic oil, you can easily go that long and have no issues (usually)

Now look at the latest Honda engine. Its a 1.5L turbo. It has a turbo that is water cooled and has bearings that are cooled and lubricated with engine oil. It has direct gas injection at extremely high PSI right into the cylinder. These engines are notorious for dumping too much fuel into the crankcase and having 3-6% fuel contamination in the oil after 10,000 miles. As you know, fuel is a solvent and not a lubricant, so you don't want it in your engine oil. These engines have a 3.4 quart sump.

As you can see from the above examples, the Honda 1.5L has a smaller sump. It has way more fuel contamination. It has oil that is beaten up by the hot turbos. The oil is asked to do more than on the 2.4L engines. It has less oil, so the oil contaminates quicker and doesn't last as long.

Toyota, years ago, implemented free maintenance for two years or 24K miles, whichever came first. This was a marketing stunt. People were impressed with the "free" maintenance and it was important to many. In essence, you only got two free oil changes every 10,000 miles. That cost Toyota $50 at most. The car doesn't need any other maintenance in the first 2 years essentially.

The 10,000 mile oil changes did have a side effect though. Stretched timing chains. The 10K mile oil changes were good for CAFE and Toyota's bottom dollar, but they were not good for the durability of the engine. The oil standard was SN, then SN+, and now SP. They addressed timing chain stretch with each modernization to the latest oil standard. New SP oils are certainly better than the SN standard from 5 years ago...

I think if you do your homework and want longevity out of your engine, you might want to stick with 5000 mile changes.

My brother bought a new RAV4 a few years ago, he lets them do the 10K free change but pays for another change every 5K.

quote:

But if you're running a new car with 0-XX oil, you won't get 200k from your engine, or 300k regularly from normally aspirated engines running 5-30 full syn top tier oils.

Eventually the car makers will go back to what the engineers told them to do, and not run 0-xx oils, but only after customers stop paying 65k for new vehicles which need new engines before 100k.

It turns out that the 0-xx wt full syn oil are having shear failure after 5k miles, because the shear protection in a 0-x wt oil is from the anti-shear additives, instead of a heavier base oil, the latter of which hold up longer for the given miles. These anti-shear additives are basically breaking down early. I would call that an oops, were it not for the manufacturers selling $65k+ vehicles more frequently right after the engines blow up soon after the warranty expires.

If your owner's manual calls for 0W20 oil, would you recommend running 5W20 instead?

Let's review the meaning of the viscosity grades numbers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J300

The first number and letter are a designation for the maximum resistance to engine cranking at a cold temperature. The second number is the viscosity at the operating temperature measurement point. These two numbers measure two different requirements.

The 0W designation offers less resistance to engine cranking than the 5W designation when the oil and engine are cold. However, the 20 designation indicates the same general viscosity at operating temperature.

The way the cold temperature performance is reached is with "pour point depressants," as well as "viscosity index improvers." Changing from 0W to 5W does not always reduce the amount of VII present, since a PPD change alone could be effective. Moving to 5W is not always a solution to minimize shear, as the PPD quantity is so small compared to the VII. However, the PPD are often made with a structure that easily shears down. The molecular weight of each polymer determines, in general, its propensity to shear.

However, SAE J300 states the minimum viscosity after shearing, and for a 20 viscosity grade engine oil, that is at least 5.6 cSt. Changing the winter grade from 0W to 5W does not change the allowable lowest viscosity at operating temperature after shear.

As a formulator, one must balance a number of requirements with various chemistries. Film thickness at temperature, viscosity, shear loss, pumping loss, oxidative stability, boundary friction, mixed film traction, dynamic friction, and of course, costs. A very good Group IV base oil costs more than a Group III, and its benefits are only slightly measurable. The three forms of VII chemistry are low, medium and high cost, and also low, medium and high treat rate. Which do you choose and why? Don't forget that the additive package must also remain in solution with the VII and the base oil or oils.


Amsoil is always a reasonable resource for technical opinion.

https://blog.amsoil.com/unders...DEAAYASAAEgLW2_D_BwE

I pulled this from that Amsoil blog.

I live in the Washington, DC area. The last time the winter temperature dipped below 0F was January 1994. It can get above 100F a few times in the summer. Based on this chart, and being a bit conservative for winter temperatures if I might travel north, I should be using 15W40 synthetic oil in my car, given the oil is up to the current SAE specs?

My car's owner's manual states to use 0W20 oil. Of course, the manufacturer has no idea exactly where any one of their cars will be garaged, so I assume that "catch-all" 0W20 viscosity grade is specified to cover a very wide range of environmental conditions.

Never understood trying to maximize oil life. What's the up side? I save a couple hundred bucks over the course of my car's life? Heck I spend more on gas in a month. I like to keep my safety buffer. I don't shoot proof loads in my guns just because they can take them.



Honestly I don't own any cars that "wear out" their oil. It don't stay in the engine anywhere near long enough to do that. lol I do a filter change and whatever oil happens to be in it, every 12-18 months.

In the marine industry, synthetic blend is superior to full synthetic and most engine manufacturers require it. The synthetic doesn't get hot enough for the moisture to be burned out of it is one reason in the marine industry. Additives are another.

I don't even know if full synthetic makes sense for most drivers. Engines these days will outlast the vehicle for most drivers just using whatever the manufacturer calls for (synthetic blend, dyno oil, etc.)

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:

quote:

Originally posted by Cassandra:
Slight train of thought. How many miles between oil changes are our learned members running these days using the newest full and blended synthetics? I am running full synth Pennzoil and trying to go 8000 but wife still only wants 5000.
Thank you...

If you study the latest recommendations by the best shop owners and mechanics on the net, you'll find that the manufacturer recommendations of changes between 8 and 10k (or more) are NOT the recommendations of the engineers who designed those motors. Engines in new vehicles are being damaged with 0-xx wt full syn at 10k interval oil changes under normal driving conditions, and sludged with full syn for longer intervals. The shops are telling all their customers for all gasoline cars to change every 5k. I've been doing that for quite a while now, and will continue to do so into the future.

So this time your wife was right, but you're going to have to tell her she was right.

But if you trade out new cars every three years, you'll be ok. But if you're running a new car with 0-XX oil, you won't get 200k from your engine, or 300k regularly from normally aspirated engines running 5-30 full syn top tier oils.

Eventually the car makers will go back to what the engineers told them to do, and not run 0-xx oils, but only after customers stop paying 65k for new vehicles which need new engines before 100k.

It turns out that the 0-xx wt full syn oil are having shear failure after 5k miles, because the shear protection in a 0-x wt oil is from the anti-shear additives, instead of a heavier base oil, the latter of which hold up longer for the given miles. These anti-shear additives are basically breaking down early. I would call that an oops, were it not for the manufacturers selling $65k+ vehicles more frequently right after the engines blow up soon after the warranty expires.

As they say when looking for the bad guys, follow the money.

This is nonsense, most modern engines will go well over 200k miles running the oil their engineers specify, if not 300-500k miles. Back in the 80's motors lasting much over 100k were an extremely rare sight, and they ran heavy oil.

They specify low weight oils because the clearances on modern engines is much smaller and so are the oil passages. So running heavy oil may actually damage your engine because the oil is not getting to all of the places it needs to in order to lubricate.

Please tell me WHICH new 65k vehicles need engines at 100k miles.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Please tell me WHICH new 65k vehicles need engines at 100k miles.

Pretty much every 6.2 GM from 2021 to 2024. They are experiencing oil based catastrophic failures.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Please tell me WHICH new 65k vehicles need engines at 100k miles.

Pretty much every 6.2 GM from 2021 to 2024. They are experiencing oil based catastrophic failures.

I'm not up on the later GM stuff. But that's the only engine I've heard of that doesn't go much longer than the engines of 20+ years ago. But, From what I heard on those, aside from design issues (those engines used to be bullet proof in earlier years) is it's the AFM mostly that is causing issues and probably GM's choice of using different quality internals.

The only way to tell how your engine oil is doing, and how often it needs to be changed is to pull oil samples before every oil change to see where the oil is at. Oil is changed mostly because it's polluted (with unburned hydrocarbons and etc), not because it is no longer effective as a lubricant. Ship engines NEVER change their oil, they run it through a centrifuge to spin out contaminents and keep using it.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:
If your owner's manual calls for 0W20 oil, would you recommend running 5W20 instead?

I'm just some weirdo on the internet, and this is my opinion, worth what you paid for it...

Research that same engine in overseas markets or Canada. You may find they recommend a different grade. You need to be sure it is the same engine. Not just a turbo 2.4l, but the entire engine designator. e.g. SF2.4Ta.

The 2016 Subaru specified 0W-20 in the USA but 5W-30 elsewhere. There were widespread oil consumption problems with the 0W. Looking at the temperature chart above we can see only at ridiculously cold temps might the 5W be too thick.

Going to 5W-30 not only cured my oil consumption but greatly quieted the motor at highway speeds. I suspect the thinner oils are specified in the USA because of government fuel economy and/or emissions requirements.

Jmho, but if the oil is certified to any specifications your car requires, such as VW804, it is good.

I also do frequent oil changes. Between 5000 and 8000 miles. Plus a first change at 1000 miles on a new car.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
This is nonsense, most modern engines will go well over 200k miles running the oil their engineers specify, if not 300-500k miles....

They specify low weight oils because the clearances on modern engines is much smaller and so are the oil passages. So running heavy oil may actually damage your engine because the oil is not getting to all of the places it needs to in order to lubricate.

Over the years manufacturers have been using lower viscosity oils in motors to reduce friction, very slightly but every little bit helps when it comes to the all important gas mileage and CAFE standard. If they run a 0W-20 oil in their engine through the EPA test *that's* the oil they must spec to used, no exception. They can't recommend 5w-30 which might be best for engine longevity but fill with 0w-20 for the EPA test.

Over the years the oil viscosity spec in many engines has been lowered, without changing the engine internals. Some more recent engines actually have looser tolerances, piston ring to cylinder for example, to reduce friction.

I recall this discussion a few years ago regarding my 2019 Corolla HB. Toyota's US manual specifically states 0W-16 oil must be used. In an emergency you can use 0W-20 but change back to the recommended 0W-16 as soon as possible. No mention of any other viscosity whether you drive in the Arizona dessert in summer or Montana in winter.

However the owners manual for same Corolla, using the same M2A-FKS 2.0 engine, being sold in Australia reads very different. It can be downloaded here if you like.
https://toyotamanuals.com.au/d...anual-apr-20-jul-21/

On page 326 it shows a graph for what oils are appropriate for various temperature range:
10W-30 is fine for 0F to 100F+
5W-30, 5W-20, 0W-20, and 0W-16 for -20F to 100F+

It further states:
0W-16 is filled into your Toyota vehicle at manufacturing, and the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather.
If you use 10W-30 or higher viscosity oil in extremely low temperatures, the engine may become difficult to start, so SAE 0w-16, 0W-20, 5W-20, or 5W-30 engine oil is recommended.

I almost bought Valvoline's 15w40 synthetic blend because it was $9 a gallon less than the full synthetic T6 I usually buy which would have saved me $27 on my truck's oil change today. Valvoline's blend meets the Ford spec for my truck's engine, but their $2 a gallon less conventional oil does not.