Question re Posse Comitatus

January 19, 2021, 01:12 PM

RogueJSK

National Guard troops from all over the country get deployed to the border on a semi-regular basis. Many of those aren't from border states, or adjacent to border states.

Similarly, when big disasters hit (like large hurricanes), National Guardsmen from all over the country are sent to help. Not just from that state or neighboring states.

January 19, 2021, 01:20 PM

bald1

V-tail, in case your thread here was prompted by my Posse Comitatus Act comment in the Trump IV thread, I was referring to the small number of active duty (aka "Federal") troops the Pentagon was adding to the DC mix and not the NG personnel States have sent. That's where a violation has occurred.

January 19, 2021, 01:32 PM

Speedbird

We are currently on title 32 (305f) orders:
- State orders (same pay scale as Active or AT)
- Federally funded

There is an agreement between my state (VA) and DC

January 19, 2021, 01:36 PM

stoic-one

The NG weren't directly activated by the feds, so no.

As I understand it, there are usually ~2k active duty military that participate in the inauguration, largely ceremonial roles like color guard and the band.

However, there were an additional 750 deployed this week, and NOT for typical services associated with an inauguration.

quote:
Pentagon deploys hundreds of active-duty troops for inauguration security
The personnel will support enhanced security measures related to the event, as local law enforcement continues to track threats of violence.

The Pentagon has authorized hundreds of active-duty troops to support enhanced security measures related to President-elect Joe Biden’s inauguration, as local law enforcement continues to track threats of violence in the nation’s capital in the days leading up to the ceremony, according to two defense officials.

The 750 active-duty personnel deployed this week include service members with expertise in handling chemical, biological, nuclear, radiological and explosive weapons, as well as explosive ordnance disposal and medical teams skilled in trauma response, said one defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive operations.

The Department of Defense has also authorized active-duty personnel to coordinate with the Federal Emergency Management Agency, medical personnel to conduct Covid-19 testing in support of the attending physician of Congress, and additional management and support personnel, the official said.

More at link
https://www.politico.com/news/...tion-security-460203

January 19, 2021, 01:41 PM

stoic-one

quote:
Originally posted by Speedbird:
We are currently on title 32 (305f) orders:
- State orders (same pay scale as Active or AT)
- Federally funded

There is an agreement between my state (VA) and DC

Are you there? Care to share with us whether you're actually armed? ie loaded magazines being carried?

A good chunk of the photos I have seen, have been of troops with no magazines.

January 19, 2021, 01:45 PM

V-Tail

I should have framed my question with respect to this:

quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act:

The Act does not prevent the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard under state authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within its home state or in an adjacent state if invited by that state's governor.

January 19, 2021, 01:55 PM

sigfreund

quote:
Originally posted by bald1:
That's where a violation has occurred.

quote:
The 750 active-duty personnel deployed this week include service members with expertise in handling chemical, biological, nuclear, radiological and explosive weapons, as well as explosive ordnance disposal and medical teams skilled in trauma response ....

The posse comitatus act prohibits using the Army or Air Force for law enforcement purposes.

“Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.”

Providing medical care, identifying and rendering explosive devices safe, or dealing with CBNR materials by Army personnel does not necessarily involve law enforcement any more than does the response of a fire department to a fire or an ambulance crew to a vehicle accident. Active duty personnel are often used to support non-law enforcement efforts such as when the Intelligence Center and School at Fort Huachuca was closed down and we were all deployed to fight off post wildfires in the area.

January 19, 2021, 02:12 PM

bald1

sigfreund,

Your citation is correct and when I made my "violation" comment, it was based on the initial announcement of the Pentagon adding the 750 active duty personnel to the NG troops providing Inauguration security which would be a law enforcement function.

Only later was clarification provided about the technical support roles.

January 19, 2021, 02:26 PM

sigmonkey

quote:
Originally posted by stoic-one:...

A good chunk of the photos I have seen, have been of troops with no magazines.

From the NYT video

https://nypost.com/2021/01/18/...-biden-inauguration/

January 19, 2021, 09:15 PM

joel9507

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
“Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.”

Do NOT misuse the finest armed forces in the world domestically, or be prepared to pay a hefty fine!

Seriously.....it's conceivable violations of Posse Comitatus could result in just a fine?!?!

I don't know why, but I'm flashing on Blazing Saddles here..."Someone's gotta to go back and get a shitload of dimes....."

January 19, 2021, 10:04 PM

Skull Leader

quote:
Care to share with us whether you're actually armed? ie loaded magazines being carried?

Perhaps after all of this is over he could talk about it, but until then he shouldn't.

January 19, 2021, 10:34 PM

Rick Lee

quote:
Originally posted by joel9507:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
“Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.”

Do NOT misuse the finest armed forces in the world domestically, or be prepared to pay a hefty fine!

Seriously.....it's conceivable violations of Posse Comitatus could result in just a fine?!?!

I don't know why, but I'm flashing on Blazing Saddles here..."Someone's gotta to go back and get a shitload of dimes....."

Whatever the penalty, whatever the wording of the law, you can rest assured the Feds will do whatever the fook they want and find a way to justify it.

January 20, 2021, 10:46 AM

Belgian Blue

quote:
Originally posted by Rick Lee:
quote:
Originally posted by joel9507:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
“Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.”

Do NOT misuse the finest armed forces in the world domestically, or be prepared to pay a hefty fine!

Seriously.....it's conceivable violations of Posse Comitatus could result in just a fine?!?!

I don't know why, but I'm flashing on Blazing Saddles here..."Someone's gotta to go back and get a shitload of dimes....."

Whatever the penalty, whatever the wording of the law, you can rest assured the Feds will do whatever the fook they want and find a way to justify it.

Absolutely correct. Posse Comitatus is really pretty much irrelevant anyway.

Local & Federal Agencies easily get around it by:

1) Hiring prior military personnel

2) Issuing select-fire full on military weapons, uniforms & vehicles

3) Employing military tactics and doctrine

We'd see far less in the way of gun control in the US if they applied the same restrictions to civilian law enforcement as they do to law abiding citizens.