A lot of good answers here but I am going to state the obvious.

Learn to shoot accurately faster. Everyone looks for a magic answer, but the only answer is score your hits faster. There is no guarantee that your first couple of rounds will give you any type of response from your opponent. Even with a 5.56 rifle. Your opponent may be wearing plates. They are cheap and readily available these days.

Which is why I hate the majority of LE training, and those who are in the training world that came from that genre. Shoot twice and assess translates into “prod a couple of times, waste time you should still be shooting, and then try to make up for it by shooting faster than you can call your shots”.

Shoot until the threat goes away. If the threat doesn’t go away fast enough, switch target areas and keep shooting.

Oh, and carry a gun that you can shoot to your potential.

Yooper and Guppy are right on. I have practiced the drug and body armor drill(failure drill) so many times in training and qualifications with pistol and carbine that if I ever had to shoot defensively I will probably default to it. Two to the body one to the head, the stopping concept is obvious. Two to the body and one or two to the pelvis is effective for a couple reasons. A suspect hit in the pelvis solidly will not be able to stand up, especially if hit on both sides. Secondly, there are several major blood vessels in that area, most notably the femoral artery. A severed femoral artery in the pelvic area is nearly impossible to treat in the field. Shot placement is king. The effect, however, may not be immediate. JJones is right, keep shooting till the fight is over.

You can never be certain what effect bullets will have on an assailant. Twice in my career I was within 10 feet of an assailant shot right in the "X" at close range with a full load of buckshot. Both still had a second or two of fight left before hitting the ground DRT. My homicide investigation training texts had multiple examples of subjects shot multiple times before they succumbed. A good example is the subject who killed two FBI agents in the famed Miami firefight. Agent Jerry Dove landed a non-survivable shot on the assailant with his 9mm pistol but after receiving the mortal wound the subject still managed to kill two (including Dove) and wound another before Agent Morales put him down at point blank range with a .357 revolver. The training lesson here is include more shots and/or some movement off the "X" during and after the shooting in case your adversary is still in the fight. And bring enough gun.

This discussion brings to mind the development of the .357 by S&W as a law enforcement round. Law Enforcement, including the FBI, wanted a handgun caliber that would penetrate steel automobiles, and WWI era body armor that gangsters were wearing in the day. Even J. Edgar called for a more powerful handgun round. S&W developed the .357 cartridge, and a revolver that could handle it in an effort to capture the law enforcement market, in 1934.

keep shooting until the target:

changes shape or
is on fire or
explodes

------------------------

Great discussion and the comments about continuing to shoot until the threat is eliminated is the reason I’ve recently upgraded my CCW from my 239 (8+1) to my 365 XL (12+1).

I ve imported 40 Strasbourg goats, all PCR. tested Covi-19 free, and am getting them fitted with soft armor.

ASPCA and HSUS monitors will be present to assure no animals.are harmed during filming. They will also be fitted with soft armor.

They will be wearing black masks to simulate rioters. The goats, I mean.

We'll target skull, COM, and pelvic girdle locations with timers and Go Pros for metrics.



We 'll have definitive data by end of month.

Please send 9MM, .40, 357 SIG and .45 ACP ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
I just heard the echo of something coaches kept telling us back in school..... One of the takeaways from that was that hips tend to be marginally more stationary and move more slowly than heads.

This is worth repeating, I think. Actually I think hips are substantially more stationary than the head.

The pelvic girdle is a larger target, and the downward angle of the shot makes it less likely that bystanders would be impacted.

I also suppose that a shot to the nether regions would be quite distracting for the attacker.

quote:

Originally posted by HayesGreener:
a .357 revolver

FWIW, the reports I’ve read stated that the agent was carrying the then-standard FBI revolver, an S&W model 13 which was chambered for 357 S&W Magnum, but the issued ammunition was +P 38 S&W Special.

The “nonsurvivable” shot that hit the BG was with a 9mm pistol that only members of the FBI SWAT team were issued at the time. Because that bullet stopped an inch or so before hitting his heart, there was an immediate cry for a more powerful cartridge in the aftermath. As a consequence the FBI adopted the 10mm Auto for a time, first in its full power loading, and later in a milder load that led to the development of the 40 S&W. Now the agency is back full circle to 9mm (as I understand it).

My favorite Clintism:

Pistols put holes IN people
Rifles put holes THROUGH people
Shotguns, with the right load at the right distance remove chunks of shit from people...


Body armor only enhances this experience. Shoot as fast as you can make good hits on the target area AVAILABLE TO YOU. Center mass all day on level 3 armor might just tire your finger trigger.

We need to train to shoot where we can, not just center mass. The bad guy might not have body armor but might have a chest rig full of mags on. Those can hamper a pistols ability to stop the fight.

Take Mas Ayoob's Stress Fire courses, then practice, practice practice!

I have the (apparently unusual) habit of wondering where certain ideas originate.
Yes, changing point of aim might be a good idea under certain circumstances, but did the concept originate in Mozambique? If so, why, really? Based on what little I know, the conflicts there were military wars, and how often do fighters in such engagements stand face to face trading gunshots? How often does the guy who has the armor and very likely an AK or other automatic weapon not win while the other guy is figuring out that his earlier COM shots aren’t working? It’s one thing to run a drill when we know that two shots to the body must be followed by one to the head without hesitation and as quickly as possible; it’s quite another to do that when actually under fire.

Another thing I wonder about is how often someone has saved is own bacon by being trained and practiced with the technique. Law enforcement officers and many non-LEOs with formal training are often told over and over, “Move, move, move! Get off the X.” If someone is prepared for a gunfight to the extent of wearing armor, is it possible he’s heard of that advice as well? It’s impressive to see some shooters demonstrate the “Mozambique,” and I’ve done that in local competitions myself, but how often does something like that actually happen when the target isn’t a stationary sheet of cardboard?

I’m not, BTW, suggesting that the M drill isn’t useful. Even if the target isn’t moving, we should be, and movement of either or both means that we’ll have to change our point of aim. And because many shooters don’t have the luxury of shooting at moving targets or even moving while shooting themselves, changing the POA on a stationary target is better practice than nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
I ve imported 40 Strasbourg goats, all PCR. tested Covi-19 free, and am getting them fitted with soft armor.

ASPCA and HSUS monitors will be present to assure no animals.are harmed during filming. They will also be fitted with soft armor.

They will be wearing black masks to simulate rioters. The goats, I mean.

We'll target skull, COM, and pelvic girdle locations with timers and Go Pros for metrics.



We 'll have definitive data by end of month.

Please send 9MM, .40, 357 SIG and .45 ACP ammo.

Love it!

Back in the 1980's, an officer I worked with shot an armed suspect in the pelvic griddle area with a 115 grain Winchester +P+ 9mm round. Not only did the round fail to stop the offender, the guy was able to flee more than a block, climb on to the roof of a nearby business and hold out there for about 45 minutes before surrendering. I was at the hospital where this guy was (successfully) treated for the GSW and saw the X-ray. There was no expansion or deformation at all from what I saw and it looked like the round could have been reloaded, if the doctor(s) had taken the trouble to remove it. Regardless of the expansion issues, the pelvis of this guy was cracked, but it made no apparent difference to his ability to flee or (if he'd chosen to) continue the gunfight.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
I ve imported 40 Strasbourg goats, all PCR. tested Covi-19 free, and am getting them fitted with soft armor.

ASPCA and HSUS monitors will be present to assure no animals.are harmed during filming. They will also be fitted with soft armor.

They will be wearing black masks to simulate rioters. The goats, I mean.

We'll target skull, COM, and pelvic girdle locations with timers and Go Pros for metrics.



We 'll have definitive data by end of month.

Please send 9MM, .40, 357 SIG and .45 ACP ammo.

i wish to subscribe to your newsletter sir

----------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:

i wish to subscribe to your newsletter sir

----------------------------------

I want to subscribe to his YouTube channel.

There are a lot of large vessels in the pelvis in addition to a mobility issue. For those who have experienced caring for those hit there it is not fun.

Hemorrhages are the number one cause of death in the current war on terror and hits to the pelvis are usually non compressible. No junctional or regular cat or sof-t is gonna save you. Two choices are REBOA or surgery.

Shooting someone the pelvis does kill people. It may not stop the threat in seconds.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
... did the concept originate in Mozambique? If so, why, really? Based on what little I know, the conflicts there were military wars, and how often do fighters in such engagements stand face to face trading gunshots?

According to the writings of Col. Cooper, the drills originated during the Mozambique war of independence from Portugal when the army encountered Cuban soldiers wearing body armor

quote:

Another thing I wonder about is how often someone has saved is own bacon by being trained and practiced with the technique...
...but how often does something like that actually happen when the target isn’t a stationary sheet of cardboard?

Refer to John Wick movies

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by HayesGreener:
a .357 revolver

FWIW, the reports I’ve read stated that the agent was carrying the then-standard FBI revolver, an S&W model 13 which was chambered for 357 S&W Magnum, but the issued ammunition was +P 38 S&W Special.

The “nonsurvivable” shot that hit the BG was with a 9mm pistol that only members of the FBI SWAT team were issued at the time. Because that bullet stopped an inch or so before hitting his heart, there was an immediate cry for a more powerful cartridge in the aftermath. As a consequence the FBI adopted the 10mm Auto for a time, first in its full power loading, and later in a milder load that led to the development of the 40 S&W. Now the agency is back full circle to 9mm (as I understand it).

Edmundo Mireles, the warrior agent who ended the fight by killing both subjects at close range after being severely wounded, was using a S&W Model 586. You are correct the ammo was .38 spl 158 grain +P which was a standard LE round of the day. Mireles and his wife, also an agent, published a book describing the incident and aftermath in great detail. He debunks a lot of speculation and myth in his book and in my opinion should be required reading for all LEO's. The book can be ordered from www.edmireles.com.

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
According to the writings of Col. Cooper, the drills originated during the Mozambique war of independence from Portugal when the army encountered Cuban soldiers wearing body armor

Based on what I recall of the gentleman’s other writings, that’s being the original source could explain why nothing much has come down to us about the circumstances of the technique’s use or the other questions that have puzzled me over the years. He often made similar tantalizing comments in his columns about countless subjects that were never further amplified or explained.

quote:

Originally posted by HayesGreener:
S&W Model 586

Thanks for clarification about the 586. Had I ever heard it before I would have remembered it clearly, as a prized 686 is one of the oldest revolvers in my once-extensive collection of S&W revolvers. I’d have to review it again, but I seem to remember I got the model 13 information from the FBI’s own video of the incident. That, of course, would not have guaranteed that the information wasn’t incorrect, but it would have been reasonable to accept it.

And thanks for the book recommendation; I am constantly seeking new ones to read and have long had a strong interest in that event.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
According to the writings of Col. Cooper, the drills originated during the Mozambique war of independence from Portugal when the army encountered Cuban soldiers wearing body armor

Based on what I recall of the gentleman’s other writings, that’s being the original source could explain why nothing much has come down to us about the circumstances of the technique’s use or the other questions that have puzzled me over the years. He often made similar tantalizing comments in his columns about countless subjects that were never further amplified or explained.

quote:

Originally posted by HayesGreener:
S&W Model 586

Thanks for clarification about the 586. Had I ever heard it before I would have remembered it clearly, as a prized 686 is one of the oldest revolvers in my once-extensive collection of S&W revolvers. I’d have to review it again, but I seem to remember I got the model 13 information from the FBI’s own video of the incident. That, of course, would not have guaranteed that the information wasn’t incorrect, but it would have been reasonable to accept it.

And thanks for the book recommendation; I am constantly seeking new ones to read and have long had a strong interest in that event.

The model 13 was a standard issue revolver at the time. I believe the 586 was personally owned.

quote:

Originally posted by HayesGreener:
The model 13 was a standard issue revolver at the time.

Which would explain an assumption in an official history, or elsewhere. Thanks again.