...feel like you have any chance at all in a gun fight? The perps in a lot of the shootings seem to be bullet sponges, it's seems like an eternity before the go down. This is with trained pro's shooting multiple rounds using the best ammo they can get. Hell. I'm afraid my 5 shot air weight is going to end up as a suppository if I ever use it.

I feel body cam footage is a huge boon to the police so that every one can see that procedure was followed. In most if not all of the ones I've watched the police showed professionalism patience, and restraint, above and beyond what the average person could even hope to muster under the same circumstances. Not to mention poise and discipline under fire. Some cool customers. When I feel shitty about my job, I think about trying to do theirs. I'd end up dead or a war criminal within a week. Shitty pay to boot.

As a side note....35 years ago when I started my Tool Makers apprenticeship, police and tool makers were neck and neck on the alcoholism chart. I'm sure I don't get the crap they do.

People can stay active for as long as they do with almost any hit outside of a solid upper central nervous system hit. Much of it has to do with adrenaline, drugs, attitude (the fight isn’t over), etc. all we can do is try to get good center of mass hits with a less than perfect tool for the job.

well in a word yes...but whatever chances my old fat ass has will be increased if I make the 5 hits

people don't go down like they do in the movies...

headshots,

heart shot, or

spine/hips

are what brings a person down.

And don't worry about your 5 shot 38, I dare say it is a "get off me" gun and at point blank that 38 will do just fine.

Most police shootings (even the ones where the cops score all good hits) are nothing more than illustrations of why a pistol sucks for shooting people. I tell guys all the time, if you are justified in pointing a pistol at them, you are justified in pointing a rifle at them. IE- If you are getting out of the car and that little angel/devil on your shoulder says "You know, I'm going to have to point a gun at someone on this call" take the rifle with you.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
people don't go down like they do in the movies...

headshots,

heart shot, or

spine/hips

are what brings a person down.

And don't worry about your 5 shot 38, I dare say it is a "get off me" gun and at point blank that 38 will do just fine.

I respectfully disagree. I like J frames. But they just do not carry enough rounds. I've seen too many OIS in which the copper ran out of bullets and had to reload, something that is less than desirable.

I don't think most police are "trained pros" when it comes to gunfights. For the most part they are woefully undertrained. I'm sure the cops on this forum are more proficient than most, but in general it is my experience that cops spend way too little time at the range, and even less time doing realistic force-on-force or sim training that can mimic the stress they will be under n a gunfight. Sometimes it's lack of interest - they just want to do enough to qualify when necessary. Other times, its departmental factors (budget, priorities, etc).

When I see body cam videos, my thought isn't about how resilient the perp is. I am wondering where all the bullets go that didn't hit the perp.

A member once observed the only reliable instantaneous man-stopper is the brush guard of a Ford F-250 doing 80.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I don't think most police are "trained pros" when it comes to gunfights. For the most part they are woefully undertrained. I'm sure the cops on this forum are more proficient than most, but in general it is my experience that cops spend way too little time at the range, and even less time doing realistic force-on-force or sim training that can mimic the stress they will be under n a gunfight. Sometimes it's lack of interest - they just want to do enough to qualify when necessary. Other times, its departmental factors (budget, priorities, etc).

When I see body cam videos, my thought isn't about how resilient the perp is. I am wondering where all the bullets go that didn't hit the perp.

I agree.

Just like with the military. Most civilians believe, ( mistakenly) that every Soldier is a highly trained and expert shooter with a firearm. Trust me.. this is far from reality. My experience and times spent working with LE have shown me this is also the case on the LE side. There's the firearms savvy folks, ( normally a small percentage) who invest the extra time for training, equipment and then there's everyone else who just gets the minimum quals and go on with their day.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I don't think most police are "trained pros" when it comes to gunfights. For the most part they are woefully undertrained. I'm sure the cops on this forum are more proficient than most, but in general it is my experience that cops spend way too little time at the range, and even less time doing realistic force-on-force or sim training that can mimic the stress they will be under n a gunfight. Sometimes it's lack of interest - they just want to do enough to qualify when necessary. Other times, its departmental factors (budget, priorities, etc).

When I see body cam videos, my thought isn't about how resilient the perp is. I am wondering where all the bullets go that didn't hit the perp.

Agreed. Invest in a defensive handgun course and a force on force course and practice and you'll be better prepared to survive than the typical LE officer IMHO. Especially since you won't have to worry about all the things they do.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Most police shootings (even the ones where the cops score all good hits) are nothing more than illustrations of why a pistol sucks for shooting people. I tell guys all the time, if you are justified in pointing a pistol at them, you are justified in pointing a rifle at them. IE- If you are getting out of the car and that little angel/devil on your shoulder says "You know, I'm going to have to point a gun at someone on this call" take the rifle with you.

My old man used to call your sidearm an "O Shit" weapon.

There is an article out there by a morgue worker detailing the results of various gunshot wounds.

The money line is “with a .44 magnum, there is no such thing as an attempted suicide.”

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I don't think most police are "trained pros" when it comes to gunfights. For the most part they are woefully undertrained. I'm sure the cops on this forum are more proficient than most, but in general it is my experience that cops spend way too little time at the range, and even less time doing realistic force-on-force or sim training that can mimic the stress they will be under n a gunfight. Sometimes it's lack of interest - they just want to do enough to qualify when necessary. Other times, its departmental factors (budget, priorities, etc).

When I see body cam videos, my thought isn't about how resilient the perp is. I am wondering where all the bullets go that didn't hit the perp.

I work with about 60 cops. Maybe 3 or 4 shoot or train outside of what is required by the department. This has been the case with the 3 departments I have work for in 18 years.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I don't think most police are "trained pros" when it comes to gunfights. For the most part they are woefully undertrained. I'm sure the cops on this forum are more proficient than most, but in general it is my experience that cops spend way too little time at the range, and even less time doing realistic force-on-force or sim training that can mimic the stress they will be under n a gunfight. Sometimes it's lack of interest - they just want to do enough to qualify when necessary. Other times, its departmental factors (budget, priorities, etc).

When I see body cam videos, my thought isn't about how resilient the perp is. I am wondering where all the bullets go that didn't hit the perp.

Exactly! It seems like the mind set has become to see how many rounds you can shoot rather than how accurately you can shot them. I realize that in a gun fight, "spray and pray" is probably the most instinctive reaction but not necessarily the most effective.

Most departments don't have the budget, or the manpower, to offer sufficient firearms training.

quote:

I don't think most police are "trained pros" when it comes to gunfights. For the most part they are woefully undertrained

I worked at a department that had 120 officers. Three guys were shooters. The rest just shot their guns once or twice a year at qualification.

As to the alleged problem with a j frame. Realize we carry handguns as a defensive weapon to be used as a last resort, not to engage and arrest or disarm criminals....truly a j frame is a get off me gun, if I knew I'd have to shoot someone I'd use a rifle or a shotgun. Handguns are not as good as killing as handguns are.

quote:

Originally posted by rockchalk06:
I work with about 60 cops. Maybe 3 or 4 shoot or train outside of what is required by the department.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
I worked at a department that had 120 officers. Three guys were shooters. The rest just shot their guns once or twice a year at qualification.

That jibes with my experience as well. I'd say that on average, a bit less than 10% of LEOs are "shooters".

Most are content with just shooting the mandatory qualifications with middling scores.

Luckily, the local police academy where I teach part-time has recently totally revamped and updated their firearms portion, with a much greater emphasis on advanced shooting skills, force-on-force, etc. So officers are getting better/more realistic instruction from the get-go. And I try to hammer into my cadets the idea of training beyond the minimum, on their own time. Even if it's just dry-firing at home.

RogueJSk,

That is a great academy. What most bean counters do not realize is that well trained officers will save money and lives. More perps down, less officers injured or killed, and less stray bullets that injure bystanders.

if 120 officers each spent $1,000 a year on training, paid for by the dept, that would be $120k a year. Two days in intensive care at a hospital might cost that much, let alone months of rehab, etc.

quote:

Most are content with just shooting the mandatory qualifications, with middling scores

70 % is qualifying in NC.

That means you can plant 70 rounds in the center and 30 rounds in the white, and still qualify.

One of my first captains used to joke and say, while on the firing line, " Train for the minimum!" He and I both shot perfects that day.

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:
That is a great academy.

Agreed. They recently brought on a couple new full-time instructors, both outstanding officers, who have done an amazing job getting the curriculum updated.

Just the firearms portion has gone from one week of strictly square-range target practice, up to over three weeks of shooting and moving, using cover, shooting from nontraditional positions, force-on-force in shoot houses and mock traffic stops with sim rounds, live-action video game simulator training, shooting in/around vehicles, room-clearing, active shooter response, etc.

A huge difference.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
70 % is qualifying in NC.

Arkansas is 80%. But as easy as the state qualification is, you have to try really hard not to get 80%. (And yet, some still manage to do it regularly.)

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:
RogueJSk,

That is a great academy. What most bean counters do not realize is that well trained officers will save money and lives. More perps down, less officers injured or killed, and less stray bullets that injure bystanders.

if 120 officers each spent $1,000 a year on training, paid for by the dept, that would be $120k a year. Two days in intensive care at a hospital might cost that much, let alone months of rehab, etc.

Not to mention the "go away" money they pay people.