Working at trauma centers, I have seen how many handgun bullets a human can absorb without losing his life. What's really amazing is how many bullets someone can absorb without losing his sense of humor! I have had some funny interactions with dudes with 7 9mm holes in them.

Even headshots are no guarantee. I have taken care of several guys with bullets in their melons that either lived or took days/weeks to die.

Rifle. Friends with rifles. Or just hone your situational awareness and choose to not be there when the shit goes down (civilian option).

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
70 % is qualifying in NC.

Arkansas is 80%.

Which equates to 5 and 3 bullets, respectively, flying around the space-time continuum until they hit something or they hit the planet.

Some of it is selective perception.

There are many videos of people getting shot and falling down immediately from a single hit. In addition, a book I’ve mentioned in these discussions before, Pulling the Trigger: A 25-Year Study of Deadly Force Encounters by Larry Brubaker, gives the details of a large number of police shootings, and makes clear that more often than not one hit stops the aggression.

When multiple shots are fired with seemingly little or no effect, what we’re usually lacking is any information about where those bullets went and where they hit the human target—if at all. Without such detailed information, anything else we know about the incident is essentially worthless. There is also a bias towards releasing and posting police body camera videos when there’s something unusual or controversial about the incident: the race of the subject, the number of shots fired, if the officer is injured, etc. Those types of videos are more likely to be of incidents in which something isn’t going well for the police because an officer is injured or highly stressed, and/or because the subject is amped up on epinephrine or some other chemical or drug.

When people look for something to prove a preconceived idea like “handguns are poor defensive weapons,” they will find it. And the reason I believe all this is important is because, “Take your rifle whenever it’s appropriate and you can,” is good information, but, “A handgun is a poor defensive weapon,” is bad—very bad—information for a novice who may go into a situation thinking, “I’m doomed because I have a shit weapon.”

As most on the job know, Cops are notoriously poor shooters over what you’d expect.

An Airweight .38 is just fine to carry as a civilian. Most folks here will never be in a shooting, like most cops. Use HP ammo in your .38, have a good Holster, belt and perhaps a speed strip and carry on.

Ga's is 80%. You get 30 shots. I feel shitty when I miss more than 3.

one thing to remember about training is that when the shit hits the fan for real, training goes out the window and the default is that most people revert to their lowest level of performance

the first thing that goes is fine motor skills, so you're left without the warm and fuzzy of precision

so advanced training and continual training is import - being able to shoot well, and get on target a high percentage of the time is a perishable skill

I have nothing but respect for LEO (and, for that matter, military personnel). They jump in when "us civilians".

I do have a fascination with these bodycam videos. It gets my heart pounding and reinforces that I would NEVER want to work in LE, and admire those who can!

I do remember seeing one video a few years ago of an officer shooting from what looked to be at least 30 feet away into a pick-up truck with all shots breaking the glass and it was incredible accuracy!

I also remember watching a very recent video of a man on PCP who got hit multiple times (you can see his shirt move with the hits to his body) and he continues to walk towards the officers and finally goes down.

Can't post here (I think that's what got my other post locked), but they are crazy to watch.

There's also a "famous" video of a soldier (marine?) getting hit multiple times from a distance by Taliban/Opposing Forces in Afghanistan, and he stays in the fight (on the side of a hill/mountain, and he's calling for help).

This videos remind me of how "safe" we really are.

To active and retired LE and Military, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE AND FOR KEEPING US SAFE!

James in Denver

It's not my place to confront or corner a bad guy.
So I'll retreat and only engage if absolutely necessary as I only have 5 rounds.

When I went to a week long shooting school last summer in Arizona, they stressed hitting the targets only in the critical areas.

Even head shots were considered not good unless they were in the desired kill zone.

For they head it was mainly high cheek to the sinus cavity above the eyes and only from the corner of each eye inward.

The body shots were high chest in like a 6 inch oval...

If you were not just shooting it there, but not getting 2 shots off in a certain time, you needed work.

Of course I needed work to do time after time.

I just do not practice enough to keep it up.

Drawing fast is another problem. Being smooth is hard also when trying to go fast.

I do not own a timer so it is hard to judge without it.

I do not think most police depts train enough with weapons, at least in our area.

There are some who do it on their own, but not many.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Some of it is selective perception.

There are many videos of people getting shot and falling down immediately from a single hit. In addition, a book I’ve mentioned in these discussions before, Pulling the Trigger: A 25-Year Study of Deadly Force Encounters by Larry Brubaker, gives the details of a large number of police shootings, and makes clear that more often than not one hit stops the aggression.

When multiple shots are fired with seemingly little or no effect, what we’re usually lacking is any information about where those bullets went and where they hit the human target—if at all. Without such detailed information, anything else we know about the incident is essentially worthless. There is also a bias towards releasing and posting police body camera videos when there’s something unusual or controversial about the incident: the race of the subject, the number of shots fired, if the officer is injured, etc. Those types of videos are more likely to be of incidents in which something isn’t going well for the police because an officer is injured or highly stressed, and/or because the subject is amped up on epinephrine or some other chemical or drug.

When people look for something to prove a preconceived idea like “handguns are poor defensive weapons,” they will find it. And the reason I believe all this is important is because, “Take your rifle whenever it’s appropriate and you can,” is good information, but, “A handgun is a poor defensive weapon,” is bad—very bad—information for a novice who may go into a situation thinking, “I’m doomed because I have a shit weapon.”

Let's face it, a handgun is not a "great" defensive weapon. Good, yes... Great, no. A rifle (in a rifle caliber) is much better. However, there are times when lugging around a rifle is impractical, which I think is most of Police Work.

Caliber has a part in it too. A 9mm-.40-.44-.45-.38(+ to +p+) & .357 will do more damage than .22's, .25's and .32's. Modern rounds and their configurations are much better and more reliable than an old soft lead hollow point from 1972. (This is coming from the guy who opted to slip the 7 shot .380 in his pocket instead of the 16-18 round 9mm or 13 round .45 in his waistband today)

Shot placement is huge. Hitting someone in an important place with an effective round works! But the perception of "works" varies from person to person. Because of TV and movies, folklore and rumors, there are a lot of misconceptions about someone getting shot. People don't get blown across the room, knocked out of their shoes, hell, most of the time, they don't drop automatically. Just because someone gets 2 or 3 good hits to center mass right in the heart, that person can still be moving and doing bad stuff for a little while. We're talking about shootings, bullets moving at a couple hundred feet per second. Seconds in a shooting can be an eternity! Especially when those bullets are coming TOWARDS you!

I'm not going to say that "I've seen it all" or even close to it, but I have seen some seriously crazy shit being a Chicago Cop and doing a few other things for the past 23 years. And seen people with acute cases of lead poisoning way more than the average bear. This past Christmas Eve, I watched a guy die after he ran a city block (about 264 feet) with two 9mm rounds center mass. Years ago, I personally interviewed a guy that got shot in the forehead (slight oblique angle) with a 9mm. Round traveled between his skull and skin, exiting just behind his right ear. He was talking to me very coherently considering a headache. A .22 to the leg killed George Wright years ago... Knicked his femoral artery.

Crazy shit happens!

One of the few things I can say, outside of "Practice!" and "Practice speed and accuracy!" is:
Learn to MOVE YOUR ASS!
MOVE!!!!

Part of the problem with qualifying on a range is it's static. You stand in a booth, with a partition inches away from your right and left, which inhibits movement.

Force on force / simunition rounds helps immensely! It shows you how things happen in real time and only minor bruises as a result of (hopefully effective) training.

There's a million other factors... Stress, situational awareness, tunnel vision, heart rate, reaction time... that come into play. Just a simple thing like your will to survive is a huge part.

quote:

Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
It's not my place to confront or corner a bad guy.
So I'll retreat and only engage if absolutely necessary as I only have 5 rounds.

What happens when the bad guy confronts or corners you?
I understand you're not out looking for trouble, but sometimes trouble finds you.

If I were to tell you, on the 1st of October, at 12:45, you are going to get into a gunfight.
What gun are you going to bring that day?

I'm not gonna be in a gunfight.
I don't have anything anyone wants to die for.
My car is a pos, I have no cash.
If they're that close and I have a chance, I have 5 rounds to take care of business.

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

I'm not going to say that "I've seen it all" or even close to it, but I have seen some seriously crazy shit being a Chicago Cop and doing a few other things for the past 23 years. And seen people with acute cases of lead poisoning way more than the average bear. This past Christmas Eve, I watched a guy die after he ran a city block (about 264 feet) with two 9mm rounds center mass. Years ago, I personally interviewed a guy that got shot in the forehead (slight oblique angle) with a 9mm. Round traveled between his skull and skin, exiting just behind his right ear. He was talking to me very coherently considering a headache. A .22 to the leg killed George Wright years ago... Knicked his femoral artery.

Actual experience is a bitch, isn't it? Perhaps we should start lying to the new guys and telling them that pistols are AWESOME. (But what will we do five minute later when they get to their first shooting and find out its not actually true???)

The basic facts are that if you don't take a CNS hit, and you make it to a trauma center fairly quickly, you're probably going to live from being shot with a pistol. The idea that you're teaching people that they are "doomed" is really silly, because you're teaching them that if they are shot, there is no reason to quit because they are probably going to make it. And it doesn't take them all that long to figure it out on the street, so why lie to them about it.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

I'm not going to say that "I've seen it all" or even close to it, but I have seen some seriously crazy shit being a Chicago Cop and doing a few other things for the past 23 years. And seen people with acute cases of lead poisoning way more than the average bear. This past Christmas Eve, I watched a guy die after he ran a city block (about 264 feet) with two 9mm rounds center mass. Years ago, I personally interviewed a guy that got shot in the forehead (slight oblique angle) with a 9mm. Round traveled between his skull and skin, exiting just behind his right ear. He was talking to me very coherently considering a headache. A .22 to the leg killed George Wright years ago... Knicked his femoral artery.

Actual experience is a bitch, isn't it? Perhaps we should start lying to the new guys and telling them that pistols are AWESOME. (But what will we do five minute later when they get to their first shooting and find out its not actually true???)

The basic facts are that if you don't take a CNS hit, and you make it to a trauma center fairly quickly, you're probably going to live from being shot with a pistol. The idea that you're teaching people that they are "doomed" is really silly, because you're teaching them that if they are shot, there is no reason to quit because they are probably going to make it. And it doesn't take them all that long to figure it out on the street, so why lie to them about it.

Do you guys believe there is a mentality that some rookies/newer cops believe the sight of a badge/gun are enough to intimidate a criminal?

How about the factor of improved medical technology? Not just at the hospital but also what paramedics and the cops on scene have learned in first aid.

I've never seen anyone shot with a handgun but I've seen guys get hit with rifle rounds and grenade shrapnel. None of them died. Saw one guy get hit in the femur with the rifle. Dropped him but fortunately missed the artery. He was a Czech so we liked them. Saw an Afghan Army guy get hit in the rear plate with a 7.62 and the plate stopped the round. His back was swollen and he was hut but he survived. No, we did not have any Tylenol or Motrin to help him with the pain.

I like to think I'm a pretty good shot but I have no illusions about what would happen if I needed to shoot in self defense. Between adrenaline and sheer terror, I'd be doing well to score hits at anything more than arms length distances.
I hope to God that I never find myself in such circumstances, but I consider my pistol a get-off-me gun, only to be used in dire situations.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

I'm not going to say that "I've seen it all" or even close to it, but I have seen some seriously crazy shit being a Chicago Cop and doing a few other things for the past 23 years. And seen people with acute cases of lead poisoning way more than the average bear. This past Christmas Eve, I watched a guy die after he ran a city block (about 264 feet) with two 9mm rounds center mass. Years ago, I personally interviewed a guy that got shot in the forehead (slight oblique angle) with a 9mm. Round traveled between his skull and skin, exiting just behind his right ear. He was talking to me very coherently considering a headache. A .22 to the leg killed George Wright years ago... Knicked his femoral artery.

Actual experience is a bitch, isn't it? Perhaps we should start lying to the new guys and telling them that pistols are AWESOME. (But what will we do five minute later when they get to their first shooting and find out its not actually true???)

The basic facts are that if you don't take a CNS hit, and you make it to a trauma center fairly quickly, you're probably going to live from being shot with a pistol. The idea that you're teaching people that they are "doomed" is really silly, because you're teaching them that if they are shot, there is no reason to quit because they are probably going to make it. And it doesn't take them all that long to figure it out on the street, so why lie to them about it.

When I started out, this is exactly how training was conducted. You got shot, instructors call “out of role” and you were pronounced dead. Thank goodness most every academy now teaches to fight, fight, fight no matter what. Beyond graduation, it is up to individuals to keep the right mindset, stay in shape, and practice.

I watch it and think "damn, my job ain't so tough."

What I find amusing is the arm-chair quarter-backing that goes on.

"That's terrible, I would have done A, B, or C, but not that...."

Bullshit. Let me shatter your dreams sweet-pea. What you will do - rather you imagine it or not - is default to your most base grasp of training. That will happen. I promise.

You won't rise to the occasion. You won't wipe the Dorito dust off on your T-shirt and become the hero this city deserves. You won't win the day and save the girl. Your "big" brain (where you imagine doing all this heroic shit) will shut down completely. Your "little" brain, where you've stored knowledge like muscle memory and repeated practice of draw, picture, press will take over.

How well you've trained that "little" brain, that's how you will perform. If you've practiced tens of thousands of draw, picture, press . . . guess what will happen? If your practice is a once a month to the range for fifty rounds and watching lots of John Wick on Netflix . . . guess what will happen?

High energy/adrenaline dump scenarios play out like this: now - when it's not happening - is when you have a chance to decide what you will do. Once you're in the situation, and that drug hits your brain, you'll just be a passenger watching yourself doing what you've trained yourself to do.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Edmond:
Oh yeah. The problem with rooks are that most get out of the academy, and they have been pumped so full of BS for 18 weeks, they believe that they are bulletproof. That generally lasts till their first good fight with a pill head, where they go 60-90 seconds with a dipshit before their back up arrives.

I absolutely abhor the whole "I'm a sheepdog" thing. But, I have found no better way to explain the criminal tendency than coyotes and wolves. Coyotes can be scared away, sometimes pretty easily. They commit crimes of opportunity generally because of a drug habit. (The greatest lie of the whole BS "War on Drugs" is that legalization would all of a sudden make these guys stop and get a job, become productive members of society because dope is legal). Wolves don't give two shits about cops. They'll avoid them if they can, but they tend to commit their crimes out of an enterprise.

Medical has definitely improved. I have put a tourniquet on in the field. At the school shooting at Marshall County High School, we had SWAT guys that rendered aid to several of the wounded. When we are at full strength, we roll with three medics and a trauma doc. Everyone is trained on advanced medical stuff. At Marshall County, we had two medics with us. Neither performed aid because they weren't in the "right place" that other non-medic team guys found their self at.

I think that we have also got so much better at mindset. The whole idea that we're teaching people to be "doomed" about being honest when it comes to survivability of handgun hits is the kind of "get off my lawn" thinking that gearhounds pointed out. Why lie to them and tell them otherwise? Their gonna find out that it's not like all nine seasons of Walker, Texas Ranger where the dude takes a single round of 9mm, falls through a plate glass window out onto the porch, rolls down the porch steps, and out into the yard to die a loud, grotesque death. They are going to be a responder at some point to a shooting, or be called to the hospital to wait with the victim until detectives arrive. They are going to see that most survive the encounter. Why lie to them and tell them their pathetic pop-gun on their hip kills more people than cancer when it simply isn't true? And likely, if they are shot, they are going to survive just the same. That sort of 1990s thinking does not make sense to me and defies reality.

quote:

Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
I'm not gonna be in a gunfight.
I don't have anything anyone wants to die for.
My car is a pos, I have no cash.
If they're that close and I have a chance, I have 5 rounds to take care of business.

That's what everybody says. Then they blow through the 5 rounds and are fucked. Seen it happen more than once.

You're law enforcement?