I can recall an evolution professionally where I as a young attorney, I was presented with a situation requiring me to choose between my own integrity and the wishes of my employer, and the firm. It was my first job, they were a stern taskmaster, and I needed the position to work out very badly.

And for a moment, I wrestled with what to do. Curry favor with my bosses, or draw a line over which I would not cross. I chose the latter, but I was frankly ashamed at myself that I even debated the issue internally. I decided that if you needed to decide whether to do the right thing, you were not a particularly honorable person. It was a watershed ethical moment for me.

Over successive years, I often took positions professionally that were strictly speaking, not in my financial best interest. They were however, the right things to do. And I’ve never regretted it, though it’s occasionally made me poorer. I always think of Liam Nelson’s line from Rob Roy:

“Honor is something no man can give you, or can take away. Honor is a man’s gift to himself”.

All I know is so many these days have no integrity. It is disgusting.

quote:

Originally posted by Sigolicious:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:


You're wrong.

I won't guess at the underpinnings, but you're wrong about where integrity comes from and how it is affected by an individuals actions.

No, I am not. No part of my reply was stated as fact because integrity has no definitive measurement. Rather I would suggest we can both be right in that "I know it when I see it" applies. Otherwise it's just tilting at parables in my opinion.

Your statement is wrong because it is built on this:

quote:

Originally posted by Sigolicious:
you are born with your integrity 100% intact, as you go through life you will trade off bits and pieces of it that you can never get back.

Which I explained already is flawed. Everyone has to build it, and until you do some Anthony Weiner level shit or even more abhorrent, it can be repaired.

quote:

Originally posted by slabsides45:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:


I think that something is missing from many occupations that are not manual labor. Integrity. Personal integrity, accountability, and respect.

With every bit of due respect, I disagree strongly with this general sentiment.

It is one that was disseminated among my entire family in my youth: that because we were a family of modest means, strictly blue around our collar, we were somehow morally superior to the businessmen across town, in their nicer homes and their white collar jobs. Surely they screwed someone over (almost always the "little man") on their way to the top.

Just because I no longer make a living doing "manual" labor does not mean that I don't recall what it's like. Nor does it mean that I forgot all the guys who were strictly blue collar that I knew who were as sorry as the day is long. The ones who whined about being held down by the system, then would turn down offered overtime or extra responsibilities because that wasn't what they wanted. The ones who you could reliably count on to call out sick around holidays after they got that bonus check.

I would counter that integrity, accountability, respect, initiative... all of that stuff a man (or woman) either has, or he doesn't. You can't buy any of those things with all the money in the world, and you don't necessarily trade those things in by default if you somehow acquire money on your way through life.

OK, but you know what I'm saying because you do see it out there. I never said which occupations, and as someone who used to do manual labor, you have a perspective that someone who has not, does not. It's a general statement like so many general statements, true to a point. I'm not coming at it from a "morally superior" standpoint. It's not moral, the building is either built right or it isn't. There is a unique mindset one can take from the trades into the white collar world. It's what I'm busy trying to do.

Don't get me wrong, the trades certainly have shitbags and savages among them, but the nature of what it is to create a physical product and the process that surrounds it is a different would than say the offices at Google. Where size and politics mean people who are worthless can burrow like ticks and still appear useful.

This is also all wrapped up in the decades long "everyone goes to college" nonsense that has not only crippled the labor pipeline of young people, but damaged earnings for many trades. Only morons who can't make it into a college would pursue carpentry or plumbing, right? So, if anyone feels some heat when I say that there is personal accountability, integrity and respect missing from many jobs outside the trades, its because they've seen someone who personifies such. Troubling, isn't it.

I've heard whisperings though that younger generations, behind the millennials, are aware of the selfish stew that sits before them and are pushing the pendulum back. I hope its true.

I generally disagree with the assertion that disdain for trade work has sprout up within the last 50 years...as long as somebody had much more than someone else, there's been snootiness.

I love your "larva" analogy, perfect.

Lots of things matter, in addition to personal integrity. It IS extremely important though.

You may be an "assshole" but you have LOTS of company, myself included...because we've ALL faltered and will continue to do so.

I strive to be a person of integrity every day and always will.

Thanks for a thought-provoking post.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BuckRogers2000,

Another interesting discussion.

A somewhat alternate, or at least “the rest of the story,” view, though: In thinking back on my 70+ years, it seems that many people have a vague, romanticized view of the people of the past and only remember (or know about) the good ones. Lack of integrity is not new, and if anything our “nanny state” laws and attitudes toward bad business practices have made a lot of things that are due to someone’s lack of integrity much harder to get away with.

As has been pointed out, integrity is something that is learned, and what constitutes it varies widely among different cultures. I recall with enduring shame the attitudes I held about certain moral issues well into adulthood. In thinking about those things, I recall how the much older, “Greatest Generation,” people of the culture I was in were directly responsible for my developing those attitudes.

Anyone who wants further examples should read the “Liberation Trilogy” about the US Army in Europe during WWII by Rick Atkinson, to include his descriptions of staggering desertion rates. The WWII Army cartoonist Bill Mauldin described in his book Up Front some of the problems front line troops had in getting proper apparel and gear due to massive rear area thefts. And when they returned home, the veterans who literally helped save the world were often not treated well by those who stayed behind. My father told the story of purchasing a car after his return only to discover after a few miles that the shock absorbers had been stuffed with paper to make them seem working properly on the lot. Mauldin’s book Back Home contains many other descriptions of how returning veterans were cheated and discriminated against.

At one time as well it was very often much more difficult to get restitution for someone else’s lack of integrity. Abuses still exist of course, but how many vendors have extremely liberal return policies? It wasn’t always like that. Some of that may be due to the Internet and how much effect bad reviews or restrictive policies can have, but regardless of the reason, many things are better today than they were long ago.

Not that you need or care about my agreement one way or another, Arc, but I see exactly what you mean in your reply, and agree with that wholeheartedly.

And I do think some of the younger folks are sick of the "millennial" gripes guys like us (me) have, and are trying to change it. I wish them all the success in the world.

imho opinion those who think they have integrity don't. A true test is when it comes to money. If you can maintain your
'integrity" than you are better than most. Do some soul searching and determine how you handled the situation. And then ask yourself if you did so with integrity?

I have an acre of land. Not much, but it’s mine. I hired a tree guy to maintain the numerous trees and get the yard up to HOA standards. Guy did a nice job, was more than fair and actually almost $1000 cheaper than the next guy. Very friendly, planned on hiring him annually to maintain the trees. That’s $1000 to $2000 a year in guaranteed income for this guy.

I’m clearing a side lot that was over grown and I find that he has dumped a tree that he cut down from my property. He told me that he and his guys would haul the tree away, yet here I find it that it has been dumped in the woods , exactly where I plan to clear and put up a shed.

I call the tree guy and tell him to please come get the tree. I usually could care less if a tree is dumped in the woods, but it’s where I’m putting a shed up. It needs to go. Guy tells me that his crew didn’t dump it and he is not going to get it. I’m 100% certain that it’s one of the trees that he cut down for me and promised to haul away.

No more business for him. I had thousands and thousands of dollars in guaranteed future income lined up for him. And he threw it all away over a $50 dump fee on a cut down tree.

Look at the big picture moron.

Integrity hurts sometimes, but if you keep yours, it most certainly will be worth it.

When I went on my own, after working for my Father for 35 years, I was asked by our biggest customer if I was interested in a big project. A 14 unit apartment complex of his needed 2 new boilers and a water heating upgrade. I jumped at the chance after talking to Dad.

What a colossal mistake on my part! I had the time, but during the job, copper prices went through the roof.

I had bid the job, time frame, etc. I was stuck, but not really because I knew I had to follow through (Thanks Dad!!!)

And that is what I did, even though it almost bankrupted me. I finished the job, and must say in a damn good fashion. The upgrade saved him thousands in utility bills over these next few years and he is still my biggest customer.

I lost over 10K on that job, but have made all of that back from him in the business he has given me since.

I know in my heart, to this day, that if I would have asked for more, I would have never worked for him again, he is, and still is that kind of guy.

I do my best to do what I say I am going to do, as best I can, in the time allotted me. It is a lesson taught to me well, and it has served me well to follow it.

Interesting discussion and observations. I agree with many of the statements from several people who have posted, but I do have one question.

Let me quote this first:

quote:

Who you are and what you do when no one else is looking, is the quality of the fiber from which you are made. I do mean no one. Not even your god, if you have one. To be frank, in my humble opinion, if you'll only do the right thing because the penalty is eternal damnation or somesuch, I don't trust you.

This is about work ethic, but also life ethic, and Personal Responsibility.

Really just some clarification. If you are saying that the 'church' or religion in general is an unacceptable place to learn the tenets of personal responsibility, ethics and integrity - what is the acceptable place to learn it? If you learn it from your parents are you just acting in fear of their disapproval?

I think people can learn these things from a variety of sources, but also agree that it must become internalized and practiced because you believe that to be the proper way to act in society.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
Really just some clarification. If you are saying that the 'church' or religion in general is an unacceptable place to learn the tenets of personal responsibility, ethics and integrity - what is the acceptable place to learn it? If you learn it from your parents are you just acting in fear of their disapproval?

I think people can learn these things from a variety of sources, but also agree that it must become internalized and practiced because you believe that to be the proper way to act in society.

No, not at all. I'm not singling out "the church" either, there are still a few gods worshiped on the planet, any would do. It's not unacceptable, nor is it the single source as some would have it be for learning ethics, integrity, or moral character. If parents do their job properly, fear of shame or disapproval is not a primary motivator. A parents job is to make themselves unnecessary. Of course the religious come in many flavors, but those who would act differently in the absence of a god or that gods supervision or judgement, well... that is not integrity or piety.

Really, no matter how you get there, if your behavior changes in regards to whether there are witnesses, mortal or incorporeal, you're a weak and corrupt human being. The emphasis today on personal feelings, it is societal permission to put yourself ahead of everything else, and holds emotion as the arbiter of what is right. If someone believes they serve their own feelings first, and it is societally acceptable to do so, well that is building in a bulwark against the development of real ethical fortitude. A fickle and mercurial standard that only serves to let people slip into being emotionally manipulated by any media source, be it the state, a religion, the media itself, a corporation, or any other charismatic source with enough broadcast capacity.

"Who you are and what you do when no one else is looking, is the quality of the fiber from which you are made"

Clearly this is true and what I have known as far back as I can remember. I also think a man's character is demonstrated by what he does when things go wrong.

Integrity isn’t earned, but you can sure as shit lose it in a heartbeat.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
Integrity isn’t earned, but you can sure as shit lose it in a heartbeat.

Would you care to explain why you think integrity isn't earned? It's not a lightswitch, and without ever acting in the world, how do you have integrity?

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
No, not at all. I'm not singling out "the church" either, there are still a few gods worshiped on the planet, any would do. It's not unacceptable, nor is it the single source as some would have it be for learning ethics, integrity, or moral character. If parents do their job properly, fear of shame or disapproval is not a primary motivator. A parents job is to make themselves unnecessary. Of course the religious come in many flavors, but those who would act differently in the absence of a god or that gods supervision or judgement, well... that is not integrity or piety.

Really, no matter how you get there, if your behavior changes in regards to whether there are witnesses, mortal or incorporeal, you're a weak and corrupt human being. The emphasis today on personal feelings, it is societal permission to put yourself ahead of everything else, and holds emotion as the arbiter of what is right. If someone believes they serve their own feelings first, and it is societally acceptable to do so, well that is building in a bulwark against the development of real ethical fortitude. A fickle and mercurial standard that only serves to let people slip into being emotionally manipulated by any media source, be it the state, a religion, the media itself, a corporation, or any other charismatic source with enough broadcast capacity.

I get what you are saying now and with that explanation I think we agree. If you are 'acting' with integrity for any external reason - whether it's religious, for your spouse's approval, social media likes - whatever, it is not real until you internalize it and act with integrity because that is who you are, regardless of any external factors.

Integrity means doing things the right way even when no one is looking. It is part of our moral principles learned from our parents and others we admire. The attributes of integrity are truthfulness, taking responsibility, being accountable, having loyalty and being self aware.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
Integrity isn’t earned, but you can sure as shit lose it in a heartbeat.

Would you care to explain why you think integrity isn't earned?

By definition:

in·teg·ri·ty
/inˈteɡrədē/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.


You’re confusing integrity with trust:

trust
n. Firm belief in the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing; confidence or reliance.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

I had some folks out here last year building a patio for me. They stayed on schedule, impressed me with their tidiness and attention to detail, and their RESPECT for notifying me before coming onto my property.
I hired them again for additional work this year. First time they were here I noticed a butt on the ground, nowhere near where the work was being done. It saddened me, but I said nothing. The next day, I saw the butts were at least thrown into our fire pit. Not perfect, but acceptable, imho. And the only new person on hand was a grizzly, older guy, whom I did see taking a smoke break.
I had made them a pie and some lemonade before I left for the day. They were kind enough to thank me for it on the invoice, which I also appreciated (although it was unnecessary- I always try to make some food or drink for anyone working on the house- something my mom taught me when I was little).
Overall, I found them to be good, decent folk who kept their word and their schedule. Rare enough around here.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
Integrity isn’t earned, but you can sure as shit lose it in a heartbeat.

Would you care to explain why you think integrity isn't earned?

By definition:

in·teg·ri·ty
/inˈteɡrədē/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.


You’re confusing integrity with trust:

trust
n. Firm belief in the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing; confidence or reliance.

No, I'm not. You haven't explained why you believe integrity isn't earned.