I have broad-ish shoulders and have no problem in my mummy bag.

The problem is: The bigger the bag, and the heavier the shell, the more space it will take up. Also: While synthetic fibers have the moisture/water advantage over down, they generally won't compress as well.

Here's a guide to fills: Down vs. Synthetic Fills

Back in the day we bought me a sleeping bag big enough for me (I'm tall), filled with Hollofil®, which was "the" synthetic fill at the time. We bought my GF a down bag. Her bag was much lighter and compressed to much smaller than mine. Mine was rated to -15°F. Her's to -30°F.

But, when an odd thing happened and ends of both bags got wet: We hung them up. The water just drained freely from mine. Her's: Not so much.

I have two bags: A cheap bag I bought at, I think, K-Mart, and the Real Deal bag. I use the inexpensive bag for late spring through very early fall (it's good only down to about maybe 45°F), and the Real Deal bag in colder weather.

Either bag: If it gets too warm I just unzip it as far as necessary.

If you buy a good bag you should also acquire a large, breathable storage bag. You don't roll up your bag for storage, but just lightly stuff it in there kind of randomly. Then, preferably, hang the bag somewhere where there'll be free airflow all around. (As per the outfitters from which my GF and I acquired our bags.)

My feeling is I can do things to warm up a synthetic but can’t do much to help down if it gets wet. Since I’d like to use this for emergencies as well, that’s how I’m going to lean. That will help narrow down the suggestions a bit. It will be heavier and take up more room, but I’m sure that can be worked around.

Understood. But you have competing desires:

• Performance down to a certain temperature
  
• Weight and pack-ability
  
• Water-/moisture-resistance
  

This is going to be one of those "pick two" things.

Here's another tidbit I recall from my very brief foray into winter camping (and I do mean very brief): Sleeping bags work best if you sleep in 'em nekkid.

Seems counter-intuitive, I know, but that's what I recall.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Understood. But you have competing desires:

• Performance down to a certain temperature
  
• Weight and pack-ability
  
• Water-/moisture-resistance
  

This is going to be one of those "pick two" things.

Here's another tidbit I recall from my very brief foray into winter camping (and I do mean very brief): Sleeping bags work best if you sleep in 'em nekkid.

Seems counter-intuitive, I know, but that's what I recall.

Of course. I'd go with water resistance and performance down to a certain temperature, and even then, I'll have to make compromises. I don't want something the size and weight of the MSS or something so light it's fragile. Hopefully, there is a synthetic bag in the middle if I don't mind going to 4 or 4.5 pounds vs. a 3 pound down bag. That shouldn't be hard to hike with for relatively short distances.

Someone mentioned Kifaru, and their bag looks nice, but they are out of stock. A few reviews said their temperature rating is a comfort rating by the owner. I'm still sorting through the other suggestions, but that seems pretty close to what I'm after if any retail brands offer something comparable.

Another option - get a high quality 800-900 fill down bag and then pick up a 8-10oz pertex-like water resistant shell for it. Use the shell when weather dictates - and it doubles as a last ditch bivvy.

I've spent more than a few nights backpacking and camping.

If you get a bag wet, synthetic or otherwise, you aren't sleeping. You are going to have a miserable night. If you've got quality synthetic and waterproof clothing and the skill and equipment to start a fire in wet conditions, then you do not need the synthetic fill as a safety margin.

Your sleep system is multi-component. Let your tent keep you dry and don't worry so much about your sleeping bag being able to keep you warm while wet. You can build in additional layers of security with a sleeping bag that has a breathable membrane foot box and sides, a DWR finish on the top, and water resistant down filling. You can get a fully waterproof stuff sack for your bag so that it doesn't get soaked if you fall into a river with your pack on.

From an emergency preparedness perspective, if I had to choose between between allocating weight to a synthetic bag or an additional base or mid layer of clothing insulation, I'm going extra clothes. Or a bigger, more robust tent. I'd rather have dry, warm clothes or a strong, dry shelter with space inside to work with, than a sleeping bag that happens to just be a little less miserable when wet.

http://www.westernmountaineeri...-series/sequoia-gws/

It's going to be challenging to match your needs to your budget. Buying used will help. My most recent purchase was a used Western Mountaineering Puma with overfill.
Saved over $400 off new and I couldn't tell it wasn't new.

quote:

If you get a bag wet, synthetic or otherwise, you aren't sleeping. You are going to have a miserable night

This. Personally, if I think there's any chance of getting wet on my trip, the sleeping bag and my change of clothes go inside a trash bag inside my pack. That way even if I and my pack get soaked hiking, I have dry stuff to sleep in when I get where I'm going. Unless it's stupid cold out, you can usually stay warm while you're moving...not so much when you're sitting around camp or trying to sleep.

Also, I'll echo what others have said about the sleeping pad. You need something under you to insulate you from the ground. It doesn't have to be huge or fancy, but you've gotta have something. One of the worst nights of my life was in a thin fleece bag on the floor of my tent (no pad) at 10,500 feet in Wyoming. I was shivering so hard I thought I almost broke a tooth, and literally thought I was going to freeze to death. There's a reason snow stays on the ground up there well into the summer...the darn dirt is freezing! I made the same trip this past summer with a pad and a real sleeping bag, and was almost too warm. Pads matter.

quote:

Originally posted by BadDogPSD:
http://www.westernmountaineeri...-series/sequoia-gws/

It's going to be challenging to match your needs to your budget. Buying used will help. My most recent purchase was a used Western Mountaineering Puma with overfill.
Saved over $400 off new and I couldn't tell it wasn't new.

I bought the exact bag you linked - Sequoia semirectangular/fat mummy 5* bag with water resistant shell, custom ordered with extra down in the foot area - when I decided I needed a warmer bag than my 15* Western Mountaineering mummy bag. The extra room sounded really appealing.

I wish I'd gotten another mummy rather than the semirectangular bag. The problem with a semirec is that when it's actually cold (for me, 10-20* in the 5* Sequoia), there's enough extra room around your body that if you end up on one side of the bag, the other side gets really cold. That's fine if you don't move when you sleep, but the moment you roll over, you roll into the cold other side of the bag.

With an insulated sleeping pad, I'm perfectly comfortable sleeping (in underwear and a maybe a light fleece hat) at 30* in my 15* mummy, and 20* with long underwear. 20* in the 5* semirec is somewhat unpleasant and the one time I slept in it that it got down to around 10* I slept in long underwear, a light jacket, and a heavy hat and was miserable. I never use the semirec bag and if I were going to be camping consistently in temps from 10-30* I'd buy a 0* mummy bag.

Also, the 5* water-resistant semirectangular bag is close to twice as heavy as the 15* microfiber mummy bag (really - in the 6' size, 3 lb 10 oz vs 2 lb even) and WAY more than twice as bulky (besides the extra size and fill, the stiffer shell material means it doesn't compress as well to begin with).

The -25* microfiber shell mummy bag weighs less than the 5* water-resistant semirectangular.

I will add that I probably have 200+ camping nights in down sleeping bags and I have not once had my bag get wet enough to be a problem, including the time my 15* microfiber shell Western Mountaineering mummy bag was used as a quilt to cover a bunch of Boy Scouts sleeping around a partially covered picnic table in a light rain after we had to abandon our (assigned by the Scout camp) campsite in the middle of the night due to a flash flood.

I took a look at Wiggy's site and their Super Light is $160 shipped. They list it at 4 pounds (reviews say add 12 oz). Would it work in a Kifaru stuff sack? I liked a video saying they are designed to fit sideways in the bottom your pack.

There are certainly situations where a synthetic bag makes a lot of sense over a down bag but, much of it comes down to your experience and understanding of your gear. Wet sleeping bags tend to get 'overplayed' and the hype-train behind this is driven by inexperience or, not very good outdoor practices. Most high-end down bag's insulation is treated, helps accelerate the drying process. A wet bag is a miserable experience, regardless of insulation type. A wet synthetic bag will helps retain some heat but, you aren't going to get any sleep, and you're still going to feel like you're wearing a wet bathrobe.

Most people's first sleeping bag is a cheap, inexpensive synthetic bag. They use it a few times and realize its not very good...but, it was a good price.

They'll buy another bag, usually synthetic because they're still price sensitive. This bag will work but, as their outdoor experiences grow and develop, it's realized that the bag is simply a moderate performer, functional but, they know there's better on the market.

The next bag is a result of the user having built-up a wealth of outdoor knowledge, their practices are sound and evolved, and they understand what aspects are more important over others, not to mention their income has improved. Usually this is a down bag, while higher priced, the compressibility and weight savings can't be overstated. Their experience dictates that they know how to take care of their gear, they aren't careless and won't be exposing themselves to unnecessary moisture.

Again, your situation drives your needs. I wouldn't get too wrapped-around the axle on 'wet sleeping bag'; is getting wet a result of not having a backpack cover? a poor tent? didn't bring a dry-bag on a paddle-trip?

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
There are certainly situations where a synthetic bag makes a lot of sense over a down bag but, much of it comes down to your experience and understanding of your gear. Wet sleeping bags tend to get 'overplayed' and the hype-train behind this is driven by inexperience or, not very good outdoor practices. Most high-end down bag's insulation is treated, helps accelerate the drying process. A wet bag is a miserable experience, regardless of insulation type. A wet synthetic bag will helps retain some heat but, you aren't going to get any sleep, and you're still going to feel like you're wearing a wet bathrobe.

Most people's first sleeping bag is a cheap, inexpensive synthetic bag. They use it a few times and realize its not very good...but, it was a good price.

They'll buy another bag, usually synthetic because they're still price sensitive. This bag will work but, as their outdoor experiences grow and develop, it's realized that the bag is simply a moderate performer, functional but, they know there's better on the market.

The next bag is a result of the user having built-up a wealth of outdoor knowledge, their practices are sound and evolved, and they understand what aspects are more important over others, not to mention their income has improved. Usually this is a down bag, while higher priced, the compressibility and weight savings can't be overstated. Their experience dictates that they know how to take care of their gear, they aren't careless and won't be exposing themselves to unnecessary moisture.

Again, your situation drives your needs. I wouldn't get too wrapped-around the axle on 'wet sleeping bag'; is getting wet a result of not having a backpack cover? a poor tent? didn't bring a dry-bag on a paddle-trip?

Great advice as usual.

As others have said, it sounds like it comes down to picking what you want to compromise on in weight, compressibility, or durability. Down means more compressibility and weight savings, but you do lose some durability. Synthetic means more durability, but you lose space in your pack and extra weight.

There are lighter synthetics, but reviews state they don’t insulate and aren’t as durable. If those are the two biggest things on my list, am I right in thinking the best options are Kifaru or Wiggys?

I’ve heard Western Mountaineering makes a great bag, and posts from the first two pages have backed that up. Their bags in the temperature ranges I’m looking for are $700-$950. Other brands make decent down bags for less, but once again mean compromising on durability. If those are the biggest things on my list, spend the money for Western Mountaineering? There were quite a few brands mentioned, so please let me know if I missed one in the same category.

I’d only be using it two or three times each winter for hunting or camping. I want to fit it in my pack and be able to hike with it, but it would be part of my emergency preps most of the time. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d rather spend the extra money or go heavier vs. a retail brand, which probably make good bags but aren’t designed with emergency prep in mind.

Another thing to note, down, when properly stored, pretty much lasts forever. I have bags that are 15 years old and the loft is still good as new. I have a Holofill II bag from the same era and it is unusable. The fill has deteriorated into lumps leaving cold spots.

Off and on have been looking at multi-climate sleeping bags. What I am wanting is something like three or four bags that can be combined in different configurations depending on the need. Where can use one, two, three or all four that can be mixed and matched.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
There are certainly situations where a synthetic bag makes a lot of sense over a down bag but, much of it comes down to your experience and understanding of your gear. Wet sleeping bags tend to get 'overplayed' and the hype-train behind this is driven by inexperience or, not very good outdoor practices. Most high-end down bag's insulation is treated, helps accelerate the drying process. A wet bag is a miserable experience, regardless of insulation type. A wet synthetic bag will helps retain some heat but, you aren't going to get any sleep, and you're still going to feel like you're wearing a wet bathrobe.

Most people's first sleeping bag is a cheap, inexpensive synthetic bag. They use it a few times and realize its not very good...but, it was a good price.

They'll buy another bag, usually synthetic because they're still price sensitive. This bag will work but, as their outdoor experiences grow and develop, it's realized that the bag is simply a moderate performer, functional but, they know there's better on the market.

The next bag is a result of the user having built-up a wealth of outdoor knowledge, their practices are sound and evolved, and they understand what aspects are more important over others, not to mention their income has improved. Usually this is a down bag, while higher priced, the compressibility and weight savings can't be overstated. Their experience dictates that they know how to take care of their gear, they aren't careless and won't be exposing themselves to unnecessary moisture.

Again, your situation drives your needs. I wouldn't get too wrapped-around the axle on 'wet sleeping bag'; is getting wet a result of not having a backpack cover? a poor tent? didn't bring a dry-bag on a paddle-trip?

Great advice as usual.

I’ve heard Western Mountaineering makes a great bag, and posts from the first two pages have backed that up. Their bags in the temperature ranges I’m looking for are $700-$950. Other brands make decent down bags for less, but once again mean compromising on durability. If those are the biggest things on my list, spend the money for Western Mountaineering? There were quite a few brands mentioned, so please let me know if I missed one in the same category.

Buy a cheaper bag, replace twice as often if needed.

Chances are, you'll find that you'll never wear out a $300-400 bag anyway. In 10 years, you can add another bag if you want or keep using yours.

Besides, technology advances. Things like gore-tex membranes on fabrics were prohibitively expensive 15 years ago. Now, it's everywhere, including sleeping bags. 10 years from now, they'll probably have bags with graphene based fabrics or whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by old dino:
Off and on have been looking at multi-climate sleeping bags. What I am wanting is something like three or four bags that can be combined in different configurations depending on the need. Where can use one, two, three or all four that can be mixed and matched.

Down weighs next to nothing. It's the construction fabric that takes much of the weight and space while packed. Optimally, from a weight and space perspective, a bag for each use case or season is best.

However, if you want to trade weight and space for flexibility on the same trip (for example, if you really can't plan for unpredictable weather) or for cost savings, I've found that the best system is to get a 3 season bag, and then add a down quilt with another 2 or 3 inches of loft. Down quilts used for ultralight backpacking and hammocking are like mummy bags, but without a hood, back or zippers. Just a footbox and the top portion.

With a quilt, you are adding warmth to the top of your sleep system and around your feet where you get cold first. Extra insulation underneath you is wasted as you only need a little to fill the voids between you and your sleeping pad.

With a bag and quilt, you have the option of using quilt only in warm weather, bag only in mild weather, and then bag and quilt in cold weather. I think my quilt adds like 1.5lbs to my setup, but good for a other 10-20 degrees in temp drop.

Lastly, if you aren't doing lightweight backpacking and just want a multi-bag setup for car camping and the occasional short distance hike, the military sleep system is sort of what you are looking for. It has a lightweight thin bag, then a fluffy insulation bag, and then a water resistant shell bag on the outside.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:

Down weighs next to nothing. It's the construction fabric that takes much of the weight and space while packed. Optimally, from a weight and space perspective, a bag for each use case or season is best.

However, if you want to trade weight and space for flexibility on the same trip (for example, if you really can't plan for unpredictable weather) or for cost savings, I've found that the best system is to get a 3 season bag, and then add a down quilt with another 2 or 3 inches of loft. Down quilts used for ultralight backpacking and hammocking are like mummy bags, but without a hood, back or zippers. Just a footbox and the top portion.

With a quilt, you are adding warmth to the top of your sleep system and around your feet where you get cold first. Extra insulation underneath you is wasted as you only need a little to fill the voids between you and your sleeping pad.

With a bag and quilt, you have the option of using quilt only in warm weather, bag only in mild weather, and then bag and quilt in cold weather. I think my quilt adds like 1.5lbs to my setup, but good for a other 10-20 degrees in temp drop.

Lastly, if you aren't doing lightweight backpacking and just want a multi-bag setup for car camping and the occasional short distance hike, the military sleep system is sort of what you are looking for. It has a lightweight thin bag, then a fluffy insulation bag, and then a water resistant shell bag on the outside.

I was looking at the Kifaru Woobie on their site yesterday with a similar thought in mind. Who makes a good down quilt?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:

I was looking at the Kifaru Woobie on their site yesterday with a similar thought in mind. Who makes a good down quilt?

Honestly, I'm a huge fan of REI products. If I were in your position, I'd pretty much just buy the REI Magma bag and REI Magma quilt, with maybe just a little research just to confirm my bias.

In general, REI does a good job of hitting what I call the 80% rule--that the optimal "value" is at 80% of "best in class" performance. That is, the cost of goods is not linear. You pay a disproportionate amount to get the final 20% of performance. Without even looking, I'm certain that the REI Magma bag and REI Magma quilt can hit 80% of the performance of a Western Mountaineering bag at less than half the price.

Wait for a sale. REI branded products get discounted down 20% or more 3 or 4 times a year. Probably this thanksgiving sale if I had to guess.

Also, be certain that to allocated money to a good pad. You need insulation underneath you, and a bag pretty much gives zero insulation between you and the floor.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
This is going to be one of those "pick two" things.

Here's another tidbit I recall from my very brief foray into winter camping (and I do mean very brief): Sleeping bags work best if you sleep in 'em nekkid.

I think this advice is dated. I remember reading it in my Scout handbook three decades ago.

The idea was that dirty clothes with matted down fibers is a poor insulator. Given the weight and thickness of old cotton filled field jackets and jeans, it could take a good long while for your body to warm up that extra mass inside your sleeping bag. Your bag didn't perform better, it's still a closed system, but you are wasting calories heating up an extra 10-15 lbs of clothing with you in the bag. But once warm with you in the bag, the clothes have no effect on the bag's insulation performance. Overall, you take longer to get warm, with only a little extra insulating benefit once warm.

But, these days, synthetic clothing still maintains loft in the fibers even while dirty. The trapped air in the clothing fibers adds insulation and provides warmth, even if the clothes themselves are not yet warm. Even then, some lightweight long underwear with hollow fibers or merino wool only adds like 10oz. You can get an additional 5-10 degree of warmth with high tech long underwear, with only a 10 oz penalty in additional mass you have to heat up with your body.

I bought a Wiggy's Super Light in urban gray for $160 shipped. For that price I can still buy a down bag and blanket. I'm going to keep it in my vehicle and if someone steals it I'm not out $700.

https://www.wiggys.com/special...brown-sleeping-bags/

Could those who own a Wiggy's bag give any suggestions for a stuff/compression sack that will go horizontal in the bottom of my pack?