Goochland County Sheriff just announced cessation of camera use.

I've read that a 1000mW laser will fry the camera.

A local investigator in my area found the city shares Flock data with 1300 other agencies. They demonstrated heat maps easily showing everywhere someone typically travels. Add to that Walmart, Target, and several local grocery stores are converting to electronic price tag that change dynamically based on who's looking at the product. Also add how our phones are surprisingly good at telling where we've been at any time.

I'm not sure there's much we can do to avoid any of this.

Well, I guess I am in the minority of folks who really just doesn’t give much of a rip on them.


Don’t get me wrong, absolutely against the misuse of the info but I think the fix for that is improved security and multilevel protocol for access along with automatic tracking, reporting, and audit of accessing the info. When someone wrongfully accesses the data, hammer them hard with loss of job, civil or criminal penalties, etc.

I spent 30 years accessing local, state, and federal databases. Rules for access were very clear as were the penalties of misuse. Even so, I saw police officers using the data to track/stalk/meet romantic interests. One of the officers used it to screen john’s for his ex-wife’s “escort” services, and more.


By and large, the majority of use was for legitimate purposes. Every source I have seen shows Flock and similar camera programs have provided the leads or info to locate missing person, stolen vehicles, identify felony suspects, etc. No question that “good” does come from them.

The question becomes does the good outweigh the potential for bad. I believe access could be locked down, unfortunately though it may be too late as the public outrage continues to be fomented.


As for the whole “privacy” or “surveillance” aspect of the common joe who is just going about his day to day routine - newsflash, nobody cares about you, where you go, or what you do. Very few of us are that important.


“Make cops do the work” sounds great, but understand that there is roughly 1 cop for every 1200 people or so in this country and about 120-150 of those 1200 people are out doing shit they shouldn’t be doing. Good luck trying to keep up with the workload without having some tools to help with the leg work.


Certainly needs to be balanced, secured, and audited but just dumping a tool that locates missing people, stolen vehicles, and identifies violent felons seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.

quote:

Well, I guess I am in the minority of folks who really just doesn’t give much of a rip on them.

A very tiny minority.

This shit goes too far. Passive cameras disclosed as such, OK. Spying on people, fuck that shit. The same for this "dynamic pricing". Mark the price, that's what I pay, or I'm going somewhere else.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
Well, I guess I am in the minority of folks who really just doesn’t give much of a rip on them.

[SNIP]

As for the whole “privacy” or “surveillance” aspect of the common joe who is just going about his day to day routine - newsflash, nobody cares about you, where you go, or what you do. Very few of us are that important.

Imagine if your car insurance, health insurance, and life insurance rates (perhaps umbrella policy rates?) were 'adjusted' because your insurance companies were able to know everywhere you went, any place you ate or consumed anything, what activities you participated in, how you got there, at what speed and how often you engaged in ANY of these activities! Further, imagine the potential for those rates to be 'adjusted' based on who you engaged in these activities with as well.

What about being de-banked or having the interest rates you pay 'adjusted' as these institutions see fit. With all that data, it's also conceivable that your rates could be adjusted because of the things that you either do, OR don't do based on what such institutions deem either desirable, or undesirable. Do you ever go to the range, or gun store? Maybe you never go to the gym or engage in exercise/outdoor activities? Do you participate in some corporate or gov't entity's definition of 'risky' behavior(s)? All this data would be great for developing a new 'social credit score' system, potentially affecting virtually every aspect of your life/lifestyle.

While a great tool for law enforcement, the potential downsides of this type of widespread monitoring/data collection, the product of which CAN, and likely WILL be sold to any entity willing to pay for it are significant! IMO the potential for bad FAR outweighs the good here!

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

What about being de-banked or having the interest rates you pay 'adjusted' as these institutions see fit. ... Do you participate in some corporate or gov't entity's definition of 'risky' behavior(s)? All this data would be great for developing a new 'social credit score' system, potentially affecting virtually every aspect of your life/lifestyle.

Now that's crazy talk! When has a government ever debanked citizens for going against the government's desires when the citizens' actions were legal? Have banks ever been pressured by the government to debank businesses lawfully engaged in disapproved of Constitutionally protected activity? Has government ever debanked lawful protestors? Have citizens' free speech ever been suppressed by government for lawful but contrary opinions? /sarcasm

I recall an article just a few years ago about data collation, where the Founding Fathers could have been easily identified had just a few data points been available. Which publications they read, which pubs they visited, etc. With this data the entire web of who was involved in pre-revolutionary community could be identified. A tyranny-minded government could then suppress that lawful but unliked association of people.

My ex-wife finding out where I go on Friday night doesn't worry me, nor does the data sitting idly in a computer somewhere worry me. I don't like it but it doesn't harm me. I believe the risk of misuse though is huge. The government and corporations already have used data against us.

About a month ago, the algorithm gave me a video some guy took supposedly on the road from Phoenix to Tucson of some yellow highway department barrels on the side of the road. One of them had a hole cut in it and a license plate reader cam. He had gotten out and was right on it, filming, and traced some cables coming out of it down to a solar panel on a pole down in a wash.

Last weekend, I drove to Tucson. Sure as shit, there it was just north of Tucson, hole in the barrel plan as day, the solar array powering it visible a short ways down in the wash. If you weren't paying attention, you'd drive right past it and never notice it.

It’s stalking plain and simple. In my eyes it’s also invasion of privacy since that data is shared. Just because they are doing it to everyone does not make it something noble.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jed7s9b,

quote:

Originally posted by jed7s9b:
Just because they are doing it to everyone does make it something noble.

Similar statement: it doesn’t mean We The People have to accept it.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

What about being de-banked or having the interest rates you pay 'adjusted' as these institutions see fit. With all that data, it's also conceivable that…

I’ve heard all of the doomsday “what if” scenarios. I don’t buy into the sky is falling prognostications.

N O B O D Y C A R E S the data and effort along with associated costs to implement would be more than the gain, especially once the wrath of the consumer ensued drawing more government involvement and regulation.

You are satisfactorily raped based on driving/health history, zip code, and credit score, that is all that is needed.


As for the “dynamic pricing”, as someone else posted I’ll just shop somewhere else or forgo an item.



Call me crazy all you want, that’s my opinion. I have the same right to call others who fantasize about the impending invasive overreach crazy.


At some point, one of us will be wrong and one will be right. Regardless how that coin flips, I’m not stressing over it.

^^^^^^^^^
This guy gets it.

^^^^^^^^^
This Guy Don't!

Awww how cute.

It's interesting that anyone that's ever had anything to do with law enforcement has no problem with Flock Safety, and then there's EVERYONE else that's opposed to it!

I think Benjamin Franklin was quite accurate when quoted as saying “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Seriously, even the GasBuddy app will sell your geo-location data to ANY auto insurance company willing to pay for it if you're too stupid to turn off/restrict location access unless you're actually using the app. If you think Flock Safety won't find a way to monetize any data they can collect, you're extremely naive!

When you operate an echo chamber, you convince yourself that you are the majority. Other opinions must be minimized or just plain shouted down. The true majority don’t care one way or another, with most not even knowing what Flock is. Despite social media making it sound like it’s the topic of the century.

Boss doesn’t fit your narrative. You are a crusader with everyone else being an infidel.

Yeah, you and I are not the same. I’m good with that. You desperately need to control the narrative. I think this has been hilarious to watch. Flock lives so rent free in the OPs head that he had to start another thread about it in the lounge. He isn’t the only one. The obsession just isn’t healthy.

Whatever...

quote:

When you operate an echo chamber, you convince yourself that you are the majority. Other opinions must be minimized or just plain shouted down. The true majority don’t care one way or another, with most not even knowing what Flock is.

Well the majority might be waking up…slowly but there is certainly more exposure now.
What I DON’T like is a private company decided to gather ALL of our information and sell it to whoever buys a subscription.

quote:

From 911Boss: “As for the whole “privacy” or “surveillance” aspect of the common joe who is just going about his day to day routine - newsflash, nobody cares about you, where you go, or what you do. Very few of us are that important.”

What you and so many others in this tread seem to NOT get, is the understanding that IT’S NOBODYS BUSINESS WHAT I DO ON A DAILY BASIS.
Not the governments and certainly not a private corporation that sells their info ON EVERYONE that just drives down the road.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
It's interesting that anyone that's ever had anything to do with law enforcement has no problem with Flock Safety, and then there's EVERYONE else that's opposed to it!

I think Benjamin Franklin was quite accurate when quoted as saying “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”…

“EVERYONE” huh?

I live about an hour north of Seattle which is currently embroiled in a bitter fight to save the illegals. Also violent crime is way up and police staffing is way down.

SPD guild just announced 69 officers on their way out soon, that along with current vacancies will put them about 12% short. Based on avail data, they have about 1,481 residents per patrol officer/detective, or about 0.68 officers per 1,000 residents. One of the lowest per capita in the country.

Money is so tight, SPD just announced they are doing away with their bonus program to attract lateral hires from other agencies. Funny how Seattle can budget $3.5M to fund the “LGTBQLMNOPXYZ” refugee “crisis” they claim with the influx of alphabet people fleeing persecution/execution from less compassionate states. Guess it just comes down to priorities where you spend the money.


Even with the “pro illegal” and “defund the police” attitudes in this bastion of democratic socialism, latest polls have about 75% of the people in Seattle (basically 100% of the non-criminal population) wanting the flock and CCTV cameras ON to try and reduce crime and catch offenders (not that it will do much good given the catch and release mentality of area judges).


Curious what essential liberty folks think they are giving up by a picture of their car being taken at a location in a place of time.



One of the local (non-batshit liberal) PD Chiefs (actually Snohomish Co Sheriff holding a contract position) recently posted some good info on FB to challenge the BS floating around. Not that it is likely to change any minds of those dug in but it does kinda undermine the MEDIA Narrative EVERYONE is falling for.


(FB post on Stanwood PD page, so no link and edited for length) ”The Facts About Flock - A Message from Police Chief, Glenn DeWitt

There has been a lot of discussion… about the use of Flock Safety cameras in Stanwood, and some of that discussion has resulted in misinformation and misunderstanding… I believe you deserve factual and transparent information about the tools we use to keep our community safe.

…

Flock data helps law enforcement investigate felony and gross misdemeanor crimes, recover stolen vehicles, identify vehicles associated with wanted individuals, and safely locate missing or endangered people.

I want to be very clear about what these cameras are and what they are not.

Flock cameras do not record continuous video. They do not identify drivers or passengers. They do not capture vehicle speed. And they most certainly are not used to monitor people.

Our officers are not using this system to watch ordinary residents or document people’s daily routines. We do not have the staffing, lawful reason, or interest to do so.

Flock cameras capture still images of passing vehicles. Those images can include a vehicle’s license plate, make, model, color and other distinguishing features such as a bumper sticker or visible damage.

It’s important to put the information these cameras collect into perspective. A police officer observing a vehicle traveling down a public roadway can see significantly more than the information a Flock camera captures. An officer may be able to see the driver, passengers, activity inside the vehicle, and other details.

Vehicles traveling on public roadways are plainly visible to anyone around them. Courts have long recognized a reduced expectation of privacy when information is visible to the public eye.

…

Here are several protections you as residents should be aware of:

Searches are audited. Searches create an audit trail that is maintained for two years, showing who accessed the system, when it was accessed, and the purpose of the search. Searches must be tied to a legitimate law enforcement purpose, and system access is subject to annual internal compliance audits.

Data has a limited retention period. Flock data is stored for 21 days in a secure, cloud-based system before being permanently deleted, unless it is retained as part of an active investigation.

…

The data is not shared with federal agencies. Our Flock data is not simply handed over or made available to federal agencies, and Washington law prohibits the use of these systems for immigration investigation or enforcement.

An alert from Flock is not, by itself, grounds to stop someone. When a Flock camera detects a vehicle match to one listed in a law enforcement database, such as a stolen or wanted vehicle, the system sends an alert to law enforcement. Because technology isn’t perfect and alerts can contain errors, officers must independently verify the information or have reasonable suspicion before making a traffic stop.

Flock cannot be used to monitor protected activities. The system cannot lawfully be used to identify or track people for participating in constitutionally protected activities such as attending a protest or place of worship. State law also prohibits data collection at or around protected locations like schools, places of worship, courts, food banks, and health care facilities.

I want to reiterate that Flock is an investigative tool. It does not replace an officer’s judgment, responsibility, or obligation to follow the law.

In the relatively short time Flock cameras have been active in Stanwood, they have helped our officers identify a suspect vehicle in a stolen vehicle and trailer investigation, locate a suspect associated with a domestic violence case, and apprehend a Seattle resident suspected of burglarizing The Cookie Mill, a longtime Stanwood business.

…

If this technology can help us recover an abducted child, safely locate a missing elder, identify a vehicle involved in a violent crime, recover a stolen vehicle, or apprehend someone targeting our local businesses, then it is serving its purpose. And here in Stanwood, Flock is already doing just that.”



The last nine months I was with the Sheriff’s office I was in records and it was eye opening just what a cluster managing massive amounts of data involves. Records are purged absolutely as soon as possible for three primary reasons:

1.The amount of space they take.

Whether physical or digital, space and cost is prohibitive from keeping anything longer than required. Staffing issues aren’t just with the commissioned folks, our records unit ran about 30% short the entire time I spent there.


2. Liability for not releasing retained records.

Someone submits a FOIA, it’s for a record that is beyond retention, so should be as simple as saying “Nope, don’t got it was destroyed when the “x” month retention period expired” right? Wrong! A Specialist STILL has to do a complete search to make sure there is no official OR “unofficial” copy “floating” around.

Some cops (and others) like to maintain “personal” records on stuff and that presents a HUGE liability and potential for fines/judgements on the Dept.

In the Comm Center we had to maintain a list of everything we kept as examples for training purposes since a lot of the stuff was past required retention but was used as “real life” traing examples. “Best practices” was to replace such examples with newer ones ASAP to get rid of anything possible to reduce chance of failing to comply with a request.


3.Workload/associated costs of responding to requests and releasing records.

Every report, video clip, audio, clip, or other record has to be reviewed and redacted in accordance with law before release. The agency can charge for the disclosure. $.05
* Paper copies: $0.15 per page
* Scanning paper records: $0.10 per page
* Electronic upload/delivery: $0.05 per four files/attachments
* Electronic data transmission: $0.10 per GB
* Storage media, postage, etc.: actual cost
* Video $.92/min for redaction work

Very easy to spend thousands of dollars in labor redacting for a major event to get less than $100 in fees on the disclosure.

The department ain’t spending that coin unless they HAVE to. So once retention is up, it is hard delete or off to the shredder.


As for private/for profit enterprises, that’s a different story. Even still, if you are out in public you have no expectation to privacy, act accordingly I guess.