SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    Another V-Tail Gone - N9306Y
Page 1 2 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Another V-Tail Gone - N9306Y Login/Join 
אַרְיֵה
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by wingspar:

while taxiing to the ramp, he raised his gear instead of his flaps.
One of my pet peeves. I have a bit over 3,000 hours as PIC* in the Bonanza family, about 1,200 hours as instructor. I always make it clear to my client / trainees, that there is absolutely no valid reason to retract flaps while taxiing, and any attempt to reach for the flap switch while I am on board will not be tolerated.

The "standard" -- or at least the most common -- arrangement in most airplanes has the landing gear switch on the pilot side of the panel or center console, and the flap switch on the co-pilot side.

I am aware of at least three different arrangements and location for flap and landing gear controls in Bonanzas:
  1. Early Bonanzas had a row of "piano key" switches on the far right of the panel; pilot had to reach way over to get to them, and at a quick glance they all looked similar. Yeah, it is possible to distinguish between the landing gear switch and the others by feel, but it is far too easy for a pilot who is careless or complacent, to pick the wrong switch.

  2. Mid-year Bonanzas (and Travel-Airs, DebonAirs and Barons), manufactured after the piano key arrangement was discontinued, but prior to 1985, had more conventional type switches, but non-standard switch locations. The landing gear on these was on the co-pilot side, and the flap switch was on the pilot side.

  3. More modern Bonanzas (and siblings), manufactured after 1985, have the conventional arrangement with pilot-side landing gear switch and flap switch on co-pilot side.
Because there are different arrangements of these controls in similar airplanes, it is all too easy to grab the wrong one, and retract the landing gear while intending to retract the wing flaps after landing. Yes, there is a "squat switch" -- this was on the right (co-pilot) side main landing gear strut on my V-Tail and all other Bonanzas that I recall. The purpose of this switch was to detect when there was weight on the landing gear, implying that the airplane was on the ground (not airborn), and preventing the gear from being retracted if the control switch was moved to the "gear up" position, but the squat switch did not always work. An A&P mechanic can tell us for sure, but as far as I know, the squat switch is not one of the items on the standard 100-hour inspection checklist.

I have been known to re-inforce my "don't touch it while taxiing" policy, by forcibly restraining a pilot who was reaching for the flap switch while the airplane was in motion. I absolutely insisted on touching this switch only when the airplane was at a complete stop and the pilot was focused on retracting the flaps after verifying that s/he was reaching for the flap switch and not the landing gear switch. Kind of like double-checking that the gun is unloaded without the distraction of doing something else at the same time. Wink
*Pilot In Command for the acronym haters

This message has been edited. Last edited by: V-Tail,



הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים
 
Posts: 30798 | Location: Central Florida, Orlando area | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Perception
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by wingspar:

while taxiing to the ramp, he raised his gear instead of his flaps.
One of my pet peeves. I have a bit over 3,000 hours as PIC* in the Bonanza family, about 1,200 hours as instructor. I always make it clear to my client / trainees, that there is absolutely no valid reason to retract flaps while taxiing, and any attempt to reach for the flap switch while I am on board will not be tolerated.

The "standard" -- or at least the most common -- arrangement in most airplanes has the landing gear switch on the pilot side of the panel or center console, and the flap switch on the co-pilot side.

I am aware of at least three different arrangements and location for flap and landing gear controls in Bonanzas:
  1. Early Bonanzas had a row of "piano key" switches on the far right of the panel; pilot had to reach way over to get to them, and at a quick glance they all looked similar. Yeah, it is possible to distinguish between the landing gear switch and the others by feel, but it is far too easy for a pilot who is careless or complacent, to pick the wrong switch.

  2. Mid-year Bonanzas (and Travel-Airs, DebonAirs and Barons), manufactured after the piano key arrangement was discontinued, but prior to 1985, had more conventional type switches, but non-standard switch locations. The landing gear on these was on the co-pilot side, and the flap switch was on the pilot side.

  3. More modern Bonanzas (and siblings), manufactured after 1985, have the conventional arrangement with pilot-side landing gear switch and flap switch on co-pilot side.
Because there are different arrangements of these controls in similar airplanes, it is all too easy to grab the wrong one, and retract the landing gear while intending to retract the wing flaps after landing. Yes, there is a "squat switch" -- this was on the right (co-pilot) side main landing gear strut on my V-Tail and all other Bonanzas that I recall. The purpose of this switch was to detect when there was weight on the landing gear, implying that the airplane was on the ground (not airborn), and preventing the gear from being retracted if the control switch was moved to the "gear up" position, but the squat switch did not always work. An A&P mechanic can tell us for sure, but as far as I know, the squat switch is not one of the items on the standard 100-hour inspection checklist.

I have been known to re-inforce my "don't touch it while taxiing" policy, by forcibly restraining a pilot who was reaching for the flap switch while the airplane was in motion. I absolutely insisted on touching this switch only when the airplane was at a complete stop and the pilot was focused on retracting the flaps after verifying that s/he was reaching for the flap switch and not the landing gear switch. Kind of like double-checking that the gun is unloaded without the distraction of doing something else at the same time. Wink
Pilot In Command for the acronym haters


When I was flying we had an instructor drop a Cessna 172RG doing touch and gos. He landed, flipped up the gear instead of the flaps, and bounced enough to let the gear retract.

He wasn't an instructor after that mishap.




"The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford, "it is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them. They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards."
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard, then the wrong lizard might get in."
 
Posts: 3525 | Location: Two blocks from the Center of the Universe | Registered: December 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of 08 Cayenne
posted Hide Post
At Wheeling WV Ohio County airport there was a company that we used for short trips. In the early 90's when you could park next to the runway and just walk up to the plane. Also many times I remember rental cars parked within walking distance of the plane at several airports. Anyway the guy took off and if I'm not mistaken he had a fuel line freeze up and had to land on I-70. I took a flight with him a couple weeks later and asked him if he got into any kind of trouble landing on interstate. He said no but he had some explaining to do when he turned around and took back off.
 
Posts: 1580 | Location: Ohio | Registered: May 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of wingspar
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by wingspar:

while taxiing to the ramp, he raised his gear instead of his flaps.
One of my pet peeves. I have a bit over 3,000 hours as PIC* in the Bonanza family, about 1,200 hours as instructor. I always make it clear to my client / trainees, that there is absolutely no valid reason to retract flaps while taxiing, and any attempt to reach for the flap switch while I am on board will not be tolerated.


Part of the reason I never owned a retractable gear aircraft was the expense, and that probably saved me thousands of dollars. Had a friend with a Comanche and one day when I walked over to his hangar, his landing gear was all over the hangar floor. It was for an inspection. He did most of the work himself with an IA sign off, but it still cost him $4k. When he passed away, I sort of thought about buying his aircraft cause I had a love affair with Comanches, but I couldn’t swallow the cost.


---------------
Gary
Will Fly for Food... and more Ammo
Mosquito Lubrication Video

If Guns Cause Crime, Mine Are Defective.... Ted Nugent
 
Posts: 2505 | Location: Oregon | Registered: January 15, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Semper Fi - 1775
Picture of Ronin1069
posted Hide Post
There is a restaurant near the St. Paul Airport where private planes fly in, park in front of the restaurant, eat and then head back up into the air again.

While there the other day this V-Tail came in. Beautiful plane; I spoke with the pilot a bit (he and a few buddies were on a golf trip) and he told me that it was a 1963 Model P.



___________________________
All it takes...is all you got.
____________________________
For those who have fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Posts: 12363 | Location: Belly of the Beast | Registered: January 02, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
אַרְיֵה
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
Lovely airplane. 1963 was the last year for the P-35, with the 470 ci, 260 hp engine. Several of my trainee clients had this model.

My V-Tail was a 1964, first year of the S-35 model, 520 ci 285 hp.

The third (rear-most) window on the side was larger, and different shape with the S model (photo of mine below), but the new style window was retrofitted to many Bonanzas by owners who wanted the newer appearance.





הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים
 
Posts: 30798 | Location: Central Florida, Orlando area | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
posted Hide Post
“Any landing you can walkaway from……………”


___________________________
Avoid buying ChiCom/CCP products whenever possible.
 
Posts: 9590 | Location: NE GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
One of my pet peeves. I have a bit over 3,000 hours as PIC* in the Bonanza family, about 1,200 hours as instructor. I always make it clear to my client / trainees, that there is absolutely no valid reason to retract flaps while taxiing, and any attempt to reach for the flap switch while I am on board will not be tolerated. . . . < snip > . . .

It sounds a little silly, but after clearing the runway and stopping, I’ve been known to mutter mostly under my breath, “Looks like a flap switch, feels like a flap switch…” in the Travel Air.

A squat switch might save one’s bacon in an inadvertent screwup, but only a fool would count on one.
 
Posts: 6941 | Location: Lost, but making time. | Registered: February 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Captain Obvious
posted Hide Post
It seems the love for the v-tail has never really died. I understand they had the nickname "the doctor killer" because of possible lack of experience in flying that type of airframe. It seems that with modern technologies we could bring this design back and have electronic protections in place.

Has any company attempted this? It is such a classic design i'd love to see made again.
 
Posts: 3364 | Registered: July 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of sourdough44
posted Hide Post
I do a little flying, glad this pilot made it out ok.

For learning purposes, I like to look at what the NTSB finds, not always conclusive, but often so.

Most ‘engine issues’ get traced back to fuel, may be fuel onboard, but tank selection gets messed up.

Only a preliminary report is out on this accident, mostly mentioning fuel. With the gallons listed & the shorter flight, should of been plenty. That said there are multiple tanks.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-re...estReport/106620/pdf
 
Posts: 6212 | Location: WI | Registered: February 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
אַרְיֵה
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by slosig:

It sounds a little silly, but after clearing the runway and stopping, I’ve been known to mutter mostly under my breath, “Looks like a flap switch, feels like a flap switch…” in the Travel Air.
Not the least bit silly. I always encouraged folks I was instructing, to verbalize what they were doing. I believe that it increases focus and awareness.



הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים
 
Posts: 30798 | Location: Central Florida, Orlando area | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    Another V-Tail Gone - N9306Y

© SIGforum 2024