Unfortunately, I believe that the loss will ultimately be bourne by the music store. It's possible they are involved, but if not, it will hurt especially if it's a smaller store. Merchants always get hosed in these situations, they have almost no protections comparatively. They pay the transaction fees and bear the risk. As a merchant, I tried to be careful and weed out anything fishy, but I could do everything right, and still get hosed.

If the system worked better, a quick records check by EBay/PayPal/Card Company would indicate the merchant is legit or suspect, and if legit and it happens fast enough, they could be notified to cancel the transaction and potentially even have it flagged and retrieve it from UPS before delivery. Thieves would get nothing.

PayPal offers two step verification via text message or email. If you use PP, you need to have the extra verification required. PITA, but it will help you stop the crooks.

RMD

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
I don't understand why everyone doesn't have every single bank account set to send instant notification for every transaction.

Not offered by every bank, nor credit union, nor credit card processor.

The only one that I deal with that offered this, is Capital One credit card. Neither of the two credit unions where I have accounts, offer this.

quote:

Originally posted by jigray3:
Unfortunately, I believe that the loss will ultimately be bourne by the music store. It's possible they are involved, but if not, it will hurt especially if it's a smaller store.

I'm still waiting for them to get back to me. They're in Oklahoma, and their web site says they open at 10:30 (11:30 my time). It's still possible that it hasn't been delivered yet. So I am waiting to get the tracking # and see if it has. It will be interesting to see what will happen if the package is still en-route. I believe that they can call and reroute the package if there is enough time left. I have done it before with FedEx.

I only had my PayPal account for a few months before it was compromised. Someone thought I owed them a nice, big flatscreen TV. Fortunately, my credit card company handled it, but I closed my PayPal account anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by TigerDore:
I only had my PayPal account for a few months before it was compromised.

In what manner was your PayPal account compromised? Somebody actually used your personal PayPal account to attempt to buy something?

quote:

Originally posted by rduckwor:
PayPal offers two step verification via text message or email. If you use PP, you need to have the extra verification required. PITA, but it will help you stop the crooks.

RMD

That wouldn't have helped in this situation. This wasn't someone using the OP's Paypal account. Rather, someone apparently acquired the OP's debit card numbers, then used that card as the method of payment in a Paypal transaction.

This is a stolen debit/credit card info issue, not a Paypal issue. His Paypal account wasn't compromised.

But yes, if you have a Paypal account, you need to use two factor authentication. While it wouldn't have prevented this fraud, it will help prevent other situations.

I use two factor authentication on every account that offers it. It's one of the best ways to secure an account, and also acts as an immediate notification to you that someone is attempting to access your account.

quote:

Originally posted by terma-nator:

quote:

Originally posted by jigray3:
Unfortunately, I believe that the loss will ultimately be bourne by the music store. It's possible they are involved, but if not, it will hurt especially if it's a smaller store.

I'm still waiting for them to get back to me. They're in Oklahoma, and their web site says they open at 10:30 (11:30 my time). It's still possible that it hasn't been delivered yet. So I am waiting to get the tracking # and see if it has. It will be interesting to see what will happen if the package is still en-route. I believe that they can call and reroute the package if there is enough time left. I have done it before with FedEx.

Gives the merchant a fighting chance. I'll bet you're the first and maybe only person to contact them about this issue. I didn't get notified about problems until my monthly statement arrived. Might want to go online and see if you can find reviews and info that indicates the music store is legit before calling just to be safe. If they are legit, they will appreciate your effort.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
I can't see any use for PayPal outside of eBay.

I use it all the time outside eBay. I used it with one of my holster makers and in a recent purchase here on SF, for example.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
I see folks buying and selling radio gear insisting on it, supposedly to preclude fraud, ...

Don't see how using PayPal necessarily precludes fraud.

I like to use it because then I don't have to disclose my CC number to the seller, I don't have to go to the trouble of purchasing a USPS money order or get a certified or cashier's check from my financial institution, or wait for a personal check to clear at the seller's end.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
...but the stories of abuse by Paypal make it seem like an imperfect solution at best.

It is imperfect, but...

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
I certainly would not give PayPal or anyone direct access to a bank account.

Have you ever heard of a single instance of an illegitimate direct withdrawal by PayPal?

I haven't. And, in all the time I've used PayPal, I've only once heard of a security breach, and that wasn't even PayPal, but eBay. Since most people who use eBay and have PayPal accounts have their PayPal accounts "registered" with their eBay accounts, eBay users with PayPal were advised to change the email address and, for good measure, the passwords on their PayPal accounts.

PayPal is safer than a CC because you don't disclose your CC to anybody. It's safer than a personal check (certified or not) because you don't disclose your checking account number to anybody. And it's a hella more convenient than a USPS money order or cashier's check.

It's 2017 JALLEN. Nearly 2018. Paper is going the way of the dinosaur Plastic is soon to follow.

So am I.

Convenience is not always the primary criteria.

My experience, now close to 50 years, is that I have never had to pay for something I didn't authorize. On the occasions that a bogus charge has been made, the issuer takes care of it. I believe that if you have taken reasonable steps to notify the issuer of a lost or stolen card, the law requires the issuer to take care of it.

As far as person to person goes, I don't do many, and try to use some modicum of caution when
I do. I sometimes sell radio gear and take personal or cashiers checks, or money order. The only time this has gone awry was when the money order didn't show up. It took 6 months to get a refund from the USPS. My buying experience has been satisfactory, with the same common sense standards.

OTOH, I have heard of more than a few complaints about PayPal when there is a dispute, sellers ending up with no product and no money, the same as if they had not thrown caution to the winds and skipped PayPal. Moreover, I understand that PayPal has some undesirable attitudes towards firearm owners.

quote:

Originally posted by TigerDore:
I only had my PayPal account for a few months before it was compromised. Someone thought I owed them a nice, big flatscreen TV. Fortunately, my credit card company handled it, but I closed my PayPal account anyway.

You do understand that the person who used my card number did not use a paypal account? He bought something on eBay, and used paypal (with no account) to pay for it.

I'd call the local police. They may take action.

You should certainly not go to the person's address.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Convenience is not always the primary criteria.

Convenience has to be balanced against risk.

Example: After switching to Apple devices I jumped on Apple Pay nearly immediately. In part because of the convenience, but mainly because it's more secure than using a CC directly. I was willing, nay, anxious, to do this because I trust the iOS ecosystem and I trust Apple Pay.

I would never have used Google Wallet/Android Pay. I did not trust the Android ecosystem and I don't believe Android Pay is quite as secure.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
My experience, now close to 50 years, is that I have never had to pay for something I didn't authorize.

Neither have I, in about the same number of years.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
OTOH, I have heard of more than a few complaints about PayPal when there is a dispute, sellers ending up with no product and no money, the same as if they had not thrown caution to the winds and skipped PayPal.

Yes, that happens. PayPal tends to side with the buyer. As I agreed: It's imperfect.

If you think about it: It's no different than if you'd been paid by nearly any other means. USPS money order offers some protection, because messing with them is mail fraud. Direct CC allows some protection, because of the dispute process. Certainly a check offers the seller all the protections in the world, because, once it clears the seller has the money and that's that. The buyer has no protections whatsoever.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Moreover, I understand that PayPal has some undesirable attitudes towards firearm owners.

They do. Worst of all: It's somewhat arbitrary.

The items I bought from an SF member? Did it as a PayPal "gift," so as not to trigger their tender sensibilities. This leaves the buyer with zero protections. But we're talking a long-standing SF member, so I was not concerned.

I've currently got an email out to a GB seller who accepts PayPal for non-firearm purchases, asking him how he wants me to use PayPal. What he's selling falls into that PayPal "zone of uncertainty."

It is unclear as to exactly why PayPal adopts the attitude they do. I wish they'd drop the nannyism and act more like CC processors. I think they're cutting their own throats. Apple Pay and the other e-payment systems will soon render them obsolete. That they don't see this coming I find astonishing.

Anyway: All this is beside the point. It was not a flaw with the PayPal system that got the OP. It was his CC info being stolen.

In this case PayPal was simply used as a card payment processor.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
I'd call the local police. They may take action.

You should certainly not go to the person's address.

I had thought that I might lose the money since it was a debit card, and the bank couldn't guarantee that they would credit me back, so I thought that retrieving the package might be possible. But I just received a message from my bank that told me that they returned the money to my account, and that the matter is closed. So I am relieved about that. However, I still feel violated, and would love to see the guy in jail!

Update:
I just heard from the seller, and he said that he was able to get UPS to return the package. He said that he did this right after he read my message. He also said that he had 3 other transactions similar to this one recently. He doesn't know what that's all about. But At least I'm covered and maybe him as well for this transaction.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: terma-nator,

I have a separate account with a debit card that I use for all online purchases. My PayPal is wired directly to this - and only this - account.

I keep less than $50 in the account and when I make purchases, I make a cash deposit to the account to cover the purchase.

Two benefits:
1. My exposure is no greater than $50.
2. My wife never sees what I spend on guns, etc. - by far the greater benefit.

.