quote:

Originally posted by 0658:
I went through Air Force Basic Training in 1965, I was in the old WW II Barracks. Christmas off to go home, are they would have been out of their minds.

I have to admit Sgt. Brewer they gave us Christmas Day off, it was the only day we had off in our Basic Training. I decided to leave the base for the first time, it was right at the end of basic trainiing to go see The Alamo in downtown San Antonio. I took the bus downtown, navigated the city, and being Christmas Day, of course, it was closed and locked. I went back to the base. In the five months I was there that was the only time I left the base.

Despite being in San Antonio a couple of times since I have never had the opportunity to visit the Alamo. Comparing my basic training with my Brothers Marine Corps Training in 1967, I am sure I made the right decision. The Marines did not have "lightweight" training such as I went through.

As did I. June 5th. to Aug? I was lucky I was in the Bugle Corps and we had the air conditioned barracks.
I was in Vietnam for Christmas in '67 and they forgot to tell me I could go home for Christmas lol.

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:

Yep, I walked into that one - my dad was an Army Drill Sergeant in the late 60’s. Thanks for the background, at least it is not all new stuff causing this. I was in a joint service school (EOD) so I got to interact with all the services. I even took the Army PT test while in EOD school and every one of those in the Army who took the test seemed to take it seriously. As a side note, the Army Lt. who administered that PT test is now a General. Anyway, just never pictured the Army getting that soft, especially when images of what my dad told me about when he was a DS were stuck in my head.

I understand the Cadre need time off, but that’s what they sign up for when going into that MOS. My mind does not understand how you can be in the middle of the Army trying to change you from a civilian to a soldier and then just go back to reality in the middle of it by going home for Christmas. Seems like it would be detrimental to training.

I figured that was the case, thats why I included the :-P. I believe Army is the only Service that uses the term Drill SGT.

Point of order. In the Army, Drill SGT is not an MOS. Nor is it always voluntary.

Imagine if you just got back from back to back deployments and are looking forward to taking a knee and then get told that you are going to DS school and then a Basic Combat Raining Unit where you will spend more time with your trainees then you family, despite never leaving CONUS. Oh, and by the way if you refuse the assignment, you are out of the Army. There are still folks that volunteer, but that is a shrinking population. So, the whole "they know what they got themselves into when they volunteered" comment is off base.

Any idea when this started?

My son was in Army basic back in 2015 or 2016 and he doesn't recall anyone not running. He'd actually run every day to keep in shape. I know he said the weekend before graduation, a bunch of girls went out and got drunk and picked up by MPs and they weren't at graduation.

and my son is in his 30s now and still runs two miles every day with weights. Wish I had that dedication.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
and my son is in his 30s now and still runs two miles every day with weights. Wish I had that dedication.

Dedication, hell... I wish I had 30-year-old knees still!

I've seen videos of how boot camp is these days. You think they were going to kids summer camp.

>>>Point of order.. Us Army Drill Sgt MOS 00F40............. In the early 1970"s there was a US Army Drill Sgt shortage at Ft. Sill, Okla ... In 1970 after returning from South Korea ( DMZ.. 105mm Howitzers) was assigned to a Pershing Missle (nucular capabile) Unit and volunteered for Drill Sgt School to get away from that Missle unit... My rank was Spec 5 E-5 with a lateral rank transfer to Sgt E-5........ US Army Drill Sgt MOS was 00F40 and used that MOS For promotion to Ssgt E-6 in less than 3 years service... Peace time rank sometimes is slow unless you have a critical MOS.....After 3 years I requested release from Drill Sgt status to get away from the trainees...My next duty assignment was Artic Cold Regions Test Center, Ft. Greely (Delta Junction) Alaska............................................ drill sgt.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
I’ve never been in the military. But in 50 some years I’ve been around plenty of people who have. It comes with living in the Washington D.C. area.

The complaints I’ve heard in this thread are the same complaints I’ve heard for the past 50 years. No combat experience? That’s been the norm for our military and not the exception. What do you think the 1990’s were like.

The military being soft? You should talk to officers who served in the 1970’s. Drug use was rampant. Between Vietnam and Reagan the military was despised in this country. It wasn’t until Reagan started the buildup in the 80’s that our country started to take pride in the military again.

Robert Heinlein wrote about this. He said it goes in cycles. I expect we’ll see a change in direction come January 20th.

Excellent point. I've made parallels between the post-Vietnam and post GWOT, it really pisses some people off, but if you look at the studies there is alot of similarity. We have drug and sexual assault issues, soldiers that don't want to train, leadership issues, etc. We are slowly fixing the barracks issues; FT Hood was particularly bad.

Good observation on the lack of combat experience. Earlier in my career, if you were a CPT without a combat patch, there were questions. My cohort and I got ours as 2LTs.

quote:

Originally posted by drill sgt:
>>>Point of order.. Us Army Drill Sgt MOS 00F40............. In the early 1970"s there was a US Army Drill Sgt shortage at Ft. Sill, Okla ... In 1970 after returning from South Korea was assigned to a Pershing Missle (nucular capabile) Unit and volunteered for Drill Sgt School to get away from that Missle unit... My rank was Spec 5 E-5 with a lateral rank transfer to Sgt E-5........ US Army Drill Sgt MOS was 00F40 and used that MOS For promotion to Ssgt E-6 in less than 3 years service... Peace time rank sometimes is slow unless you have a critical MOS.....After 3 years I requested release from Drill Sgt status to get away from the trainees...My next duty assignment was Artic Cold Regions Test Center, Ft. Greely (Delta Junction) Alaska............................................ drill sgt.

No disrespect intended nor implied but neither that rank nor MOS exist anymore. Wikipedia has Spec-5 going away in 1985 or so.

The current MTOE for the Infantry Center has a Drill Sergeant as a duty description, E6 (Staff SGT) as the authorized rank and has 11B,11C,25B, 12H, etc. at the 3X with Sr Drill SGT as E7s. I didn't look at the other training centers. I was surprised that Drill isn't an ASI. There is an SQI associated with the Drill SGT position that requires the completion of Drill SGT School and some additional qualifiers. As structured Drill SGT will be a line on the STB(New ERB) and several annual NCOERS. Meaning unless a board is specifically looking for soldiers who are/were Drills SGTs, being one doesn't necessarily help your career. However, there are several remarks in the MTOE against the Drill Sgt positions that authorize additional pay, give E5-E6 (SGT to Staff SGT) consideration and the Senior Drills are required to have prior DS experience.

As an aside, I'm part of the faction that wants to bring back Spec-5 and Spec-6 IOT retain and/or incentivize soldiers with desirable technical abilities, but either lacking the ability or interest to lead.

My brother did Marine Corp boot camp sometime in the 90s. He went in weighing 220 and came out weighing 175.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
Any idea when this started?

My son was in Army basic back in 2015 or 2016 and he doesn't recall anyone not running. He'd actually run every day to keep in shape. I know he said the weekend before graduation, a bunch

I'd say it started when they changed the ACFT standards, eliminating the leg tuck event and increasing the authorized run time. But COVID, when organized PT was suspended for many units is when it really went down hill.

There are also a lot of profiles and lower body issues they prevent folks from running. But, IIRC at basic, running wasn't optional back in the day.

I went to basic in June of 2022, as a 35 year old specialist. We ran plenty at basic. The longest was 8 miles at a 9 minute mile pace. But we ran everyday in some sort of interval training or in our morning PT. The army fitness program was top notch at Leonard wood. Always varied, different muscle groups would get “their day”. Sore but never crippled. Good balance of cardio and calisthenics. I was reasonably fit when I went in, left in good shape. AIT was a good continuation of basic with more variation and more interesting PT. This was due to smaller class size and more facilities and equipment.

The acft is a whole new bear. I came in under the current acft (no leg tuck, plank only). The test isn’t something you can roll out of bed and do like the old apft. It’s a whole body workout meant to resemble skills you’d use in the field. The 3 rep deadlift is meant to replicate moving a soldier on a stretcher. The ball throw is meant to replicate moving rubble or sandbag fortifications. The sprint drag carry is rearming a foxhole (and will really wind you hard). Pushups and planks are just general fitness like the old apft. The run, albeit with slow times, is realistic and after you’ve done all that other stuff, your legs are blown up. Hand release pushups to standard aren’t easy either… try 10 or so in a completely locked posture. Then go for 30 (70% for under 30yo) and see how your arms feel. Then plank for 2 minutes (under 70%) and your shoulders will scream. I like to say to non army people that it’s “easy to pass, but easy to fail”. One event you screw up and it’s a no go. Usually the ball throw or the sprint drag carry. But that run at the end can kick your ass if you’re blown up from the dead lift and the sprint drag carry. It looks easy, but you have to know the technique for each event and be in good shape to get more than 450/600. The people in my unit that fail the acft were high speeds at the apft… they could game the systems now they’re struggling.

My impression from basic was that the drill sergeants get the trainees as far as they can then kick them to AIT and hope they can get farther. And hopefully their units are dedicated to fitness and training. The firearms training we got in basic was downright scary. I (being Father Time, and with law enforcement and significant civilian experience with firearms) was put in charge of a merry band of weapons neophytes and ensuring they could shoot… no talk to eye dominance, grip, posture, manual of arms, etc, just “here’s an m4, go qualify”. I spent a lot of time with them on trigger work, sight picture, grip and cheek weld. People who had never touched a weapon before. We got through it, but some were green. They all graduated.

Things in the army have changed. Not all bad my friends. One must remember the old adage: just because we’ve always done it this way, doesn’t mean it’s not incredibly stupid” (see: running of the bulls)

Mk25

I started in January. The only time we got off was an hour on Sundays for church. Even the atheists and Jews went to Christian services just for the hour off.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:

Yep, I walked into that one - my dad was an Army Drill Sergeant in the late 60’s. Thanks for the background, at least it is not all new stuff causing this. I was in a joint service school (EOD) so I got to interact with all the services. I even took the Army PT test while in EOD school and every one of those in the Army who took the test seemed to take it seriously. As a side note, the Army Lt. who administered that PT test is now a General. Anyway, just never pictured the Army getting that soft, especially when images of what my dad told me about when he was a DS were stuck in my head.

I understand the Cadre need time off, but that’s what they sign up for when going into that MOS. My mind does not understand how you can be in the middle of the Army trying to change you from a civilian to a soldier and then just go back to reality in the middle of it by going home for Christmas. Seems like it would be detrimental to training.

I figured that was the case, thats why I included the :-P. I believe Army is the only Service that uses the term Drill SGT.

Point of order. In the Army, Drill SGT is not an MOS. Nor is it always voluntary.

Imagine if you just got back from back to back deployments and are looking forward to taking a knee and then get told that you are going to DS school and then a Basic Combat Raining Unit where you will spend more time with your trainees then you family, despite never leaving CONUS. Oh, and by the way if you refuse the assignment, you are out of the Army. There are still folks that volunteer, but that is a shrinking population. So, the whole "they know what they got themselves into when they volunteered" comment is off base.

I should have known that is was not always voluntary. My dad was forced into being a drill sergeant but I assumed that was just due to Vietnam and treat things have changed.

quote:

Originally posted by mrvmax:

I should have known that is was not always voluntary. My dad was forced into being a drill sergeant but I assumed that was just due to Vietnam and treat things have changed.

No Worries. As mentioned in many several posts the Army is cyclical, we'll discard and then resurrect practices as needed.

More importantly, thank you for starting his thread. Your concern is very valid and shared by many.

Of tangential interest to this thread, Chuck the Bureaucrat recently a video addressing the issue of lethality and basic training. He also likes a good video on the staffing cycles of the Army. Basic Training Video. and Army Generations.

USAF Basic Training, February 1966-- Daily two-mile run (carrying the fat troop), 45 minutes of PT, Another two-mile run (again carrying the fat guy).
Graduated in pretty good shape!

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Patriot:

quote:

Originally posted by RR:

quote:

Originally posted by Patriot:
Home for Christmas! From basic!

Holy shit! In the nine years that I spent in the Navy I don’t think I was home for one freaking holiday!

9 years? Some of that was by choice.

What’s your point?

It’s ALL by choice..even nubs in boot are there by choice…

I was in as well. All sea duty. I only meant at least a few of those holidays you chose not to take that leave period is all. I realize some of the times there is no option.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
I started in January. The only time we got off was an hour on Sundays for church. Even the atheists and Jews went to Christian services just for the hour off.

We had a unique cast of characters at basic in our platoon. Guy named Lopez from NYC who claimed to be Jewish. Didn’t know if he was or not but he convinced Lee to go to Jewish services because they could eat bagels there.

Speaking of Lee, we had many of them:

NASCAR Lee
Black Lee
White Lee from Pennsylvania
Chinese Li from China

Drill Sergeant would yell for Lee/Li and the 4 of them would look confused and say “which one, drill sergeant?”

My Son is at Fort Jackson now doing basic training.
I assure you all that My Wife and I along with his Wife and 4 kids are VERY happy he will be home for Christmas!

My Son decided to make a life change and career change last year after leaving UPS as a Semi driver after being with them for aver 17 years. He could not stand driving a semi or working for UPS any longer.
He decided that a new career would be needed and the Army can hopefully train him for that career ( Cyber Security) along with providing benefits for his family.

He will turn 37 in January. He has worked for almost a year to get into the Army. His age and mostly his baggage of 4 kids and a Wife have slowed down the process. So far he has done well at Boot Camp. He has scored very well in everything that he has been tested in. We only get to talk to him once a week on Sunday for a brief time.
He and one other soldier were the only two to qualify with there rifles on the first day. He came in second in running only to be beat by a youngster who was a HS track star. His Drill instructor recognized his maturity and promoted him to a leader. I had warned him in the begging to NEVER volunteer for anything as things may be much different than what he might think it is, as usual, he did not listen. He said now he gets punished when another recruit fucks up.
In my very brief conversations with him he has told me about the poor quality of many of the other recruits.

We are VERY proud of him and are extremely happy he can come home for Christmas.

I went to Ft Leonard Wood the summer of 1981. That was more a shock to my system than other military programs later on.

I just shake my head with most everything right now.

quote:

Originally posted by armored:

He decided that a new career would be needed and the Army can hopefully train him for that career ( Cyber Security) along with providing benefits for his family.

What MOS did he contract for? 25D, Cyber Defender is only open to NCOs. 25B is entry level and should get him the opportunity to get Security plus and other cybersecurity certs on the Army's dime.

After Jackson, he is headed to FT Eisenhower?