quote:

Originally posted by davidjinks:
I hate the be the bearer of bad news……….

Anyone that has ever filled out a 4473……….

The feds know.

These records remain on-site with the associated FFL. With some detailed investigation, the ATF could trace a firearm back to its origin of sale, but the info is not sitting at their fingertips. (NFA items are a different story)

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
So when you close a business you turn over your book to the ATF, so... did the ATF receive 54 million records from closed businesses?

Or did they acquire 54 million records outside of this long standing practice?

From OP.

"The ATF in fiscal year 2021 processed 54.7 million out-of-business records, according to an internal ATF document obtained by the Gun Owners of America, a firearms advocacy group, which was provided to the Washington Free Beacon."

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
So when you close a business you turn over your book to the ATF, so... did the ATF receive 54 million records from closed businesses?

Or did they acquire 54 million records outside of this long standing practice?

From OP.

"The ATF in fiscal year 2021 processed 54.7 million out-of-business records, according to an internal ATF document obtained by the Gun Owners of America, a firearms advocacy group, which was provided to the Washington Free Beacon."

Exactly, so I guess what I'm asking is, where does that number fit into the argument for a database being formed?

Do they want a database? Probably.

But we cant just write numbers and pretend they support an argument, if it was simply records obtained from out of business FFLs, then it has nothing to do with a database.

Sometimes our arguments start to sound as silly as the other side.

quote:

Originally posted by walker77:

quote:

if, by some chance, the ATF can get permission to scan each and every 4473 they have now, into a database, think about the time that will take,,

Won't take long at all. Especially with the new forms.

Converting a hand written record to a digital format is a process that is full of errors. As a result each record scanned will require at least 15 minutes of verification by a live human being with eyes. Since this will be a really mesmerizing process that examination time will likely become longer so 1/2 hour per form is not unreasonable. So, take 1/3 of 1 hour and multiply it by 54 million and you have the man hours required to convert these forms to a digital format. The result is 18,000,000 man hours. Divide that by 2000 hours per year and you will need to have 9000 employees doing this one single task to get it done in a year. Note the kicker in this particular task is the people doing the checking will have an error rate of 15%. This means that digital record will have an error rate of 15%. Defense lawyers will have a free pass with that level of errors in the record.

I feel first, there's an effort taking place to cause our federal government to financially to
collape ( Like the Soviet Union did ) The large corporations are working with the dem party to
have a parliamentary form of government similar to Canada's. Why? So they have only one government to deal with instead of fifty.
So, this list of gun owners will come in handy
( bad data or not) to know who has firearms!
There will be no 2nd Amendment for us.
Thoughts on this?
Poli Viejo

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:
The large corporations are working with the dem party to
have a parliamentary form of government similar to Canada's. Why? So they have only one government to deal with instead of fifty.

I think you have some serious misconceptions about how the federal and provincial governments in Canada work

Maybe you are correct but is not Canada's
system parliamentary?
I wasn't knocking Canada at all. If we do go parliamentary I'd hope it would be like Canada's
rather the European type.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:...

Sometimes our arguments start to sound as silly as the other side.

I do not believe for one split second, that you would take advantage of an unscrupulous position that you found fallen into your lap, over someone else that you were at odds with in over opposing views. I think that you would stay the high road.

However, those in the position of insitutioins such as the ATF, do not have the best interest of Americans, nor the Constitution as it pertains to the 2nd and the intent of the founders.

Rather, they (of the ATF) are hellbent and dedicated to servicing what they think is a superior position and justify whatever and all means to the end that "they" choose, decide shall be, without regard to the very people that have granted them the powers they lord over.

I am an absolutist, when it comes to the 2nd.

No infringement. None, whatsoever.

No quarter, no surrender, for our enemy is begat on dishonesty.

I can sit here, as could most anyone on this board and see that this is a recipe for something nobody needs to be cooking.

But without knowledge of the workings of an FFL and 4473s. Nobody else would be able to make the connection. And as bad a situation as it could be, the fact that it's been a long standing practice and rule to send in records when you close your business cannot lead one to assume a database is being made.

I'm on board with what everyone else is thinking but, this article takes one completely benign (for now) practice and insinuates it has something to do with a database. Regardless of how easy it could be done, it makes it look like conspiracy theorists to anyone not educated in the subject.

It's unfortunate but until there is evidence, real evidence, we can't just be throwing around numbers. That's what the other side does.

I sound argumentative I know. But I just think this kind of article makes us sound the way we are often wrongly portrayed.

And I'm not sure how to articluate what I'm thinking about it.

The article is bullshit. Out of business records have always gone to ATF. Surprising care is taken to keep them from being indexed and searchable. This is neither new, nor a liberal thing, nor a Biden thing.

Here's a video explaining how ATF out of business records are handled: https://youtu.be/rMQ2b6ZwwCU

Anybody who has ever done an ATF trace can tell you how long they can take and how many lead to dead ends. There is no database. There is no registry (other than NFA). The closest thing is multiple handgun sale records, which must be sent to the ATF, and contain serial numbers.

If you start with a National data base of the guns with owners, add in a declaration of a National emergency. You have a recipe for gun confiscation, or at the very least kick down your doors and search your house. The Fed acronym departments have all been weaponized. It is a means to target a group of citizens they want targeted.

quote:

Originally posted by davidjinks:
I hate the be the bearer of bad news……….

Anyone that has ever filled out a 4473……….

The feds know.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
...
I sound argumentative I know. But I just think this kind of article makes us sound the way we are often wrongly portrayed.

And I'm not sure how to articluate what I'm thinking about it.

I agree with you 100% about "us" running off half cocked on such stories and reports. (everything, not only "firearms" related)

I was "being literal" and answering the questions you were asking, but paying attention to the discussion, now I see it was more than that.

My "POV" on the 2nd is simply that. (and really is not relevant to your questions).

But the issue of the "54 million" was something I did not follow beyond a few sentences for the reason some had stated about another "empty calorie story".

Some days I comprehend very well, and other times, my brain thinks it is eating a bowl of Froot Loops.

Consequences my coconut getting kicked around like a soccerball.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
...
I sound argumentative I know. But I just think this kind of article makes us sound the way we are often wrongly portrayed.

And I'm not sure how to articluate what I'm thinking about it.

I agree with you 100% about "us" running off half cocked on such stories and reports. (everything, not only "firearms" related)

I was "being literal" and answering the questions you were asking, but paying attention to the discussion, now I see it was more than that.

My "POV" on the 2nd is simply that. (and really is not relevant to your questions).

But the issue of the "54 million" was something I did not follow beyond a few sentences for the reason some had stated about another "empty calorie story".

Some days I comprehend very well, and other times, my brain thinks it is eating a bowl of Froot Loops.

Consequences my coconut getting kicked around like a soccerball.

You know how much I respect your opinions and input...my initial question was half rhetorical, half reaching for an answer only some will see.

I just didn't want to sound like I was being abrasive on it. I agree 90% with everyone but I'm also a firm believer in the fact that we will struggle to change 10% of opinions, and even to do that we need a calm and fact-based argument.

I find these types of articles cater to the "pry it from my cold dead hands" crowd, and while that may be a last resort, it certainly should not be our current approach.

I know you know all this already!

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:

quote:

Originally posted by walker77:

quote:

if, by some chance, the ATF can get permission to scan each and every 4473 they have now, into a database, think about the time that will take,,

Won't take long at all. Especially with the new forms.

Converting a hand written record to a digital format is a process that is full of errors. As a result each record scanned will require at least 15 minutes of verification by a live human being with eyes. Since this will be a really mesmerizing process that examination time will likely become longer so 1/2 hour per form is not unreasonable. So, take 1/3 of 1 hour and multiply it by 54 million and you have the man hours required to convert these forms to a digital format. The result is 18,000,000 man hours. Divide that by 2000 hours per year and you will need to have 9000 employees doing this one single task to get it done in a year. Note the kicker in this particular task is the people doing the checking will have an error rate of 15%. This means that digital record will have an error rate of 15%. Defense lawyers will have a free pass with that level of errors in the record.

I agree this would be an effectively impossible task using people. However don't forget that big tech is on the side of those who may attempt this, and this type of work could be completed by AI. If you don't believe me wait a few years and see. I'm not saying this will happen for sure, just that it would be possible with enough resources and motivation.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
The article is bullshit. Out of business records have always gone to ATF.

Unfortunately, you are wasting your breath.

Conspiracy theories are more fun.

I would just like to know if 54 million in 2021 is a normal number for a year. If it is higher, I would ask why. I seem to recall a discussion here awhile back about squeezing FFLs out of business.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/1090098284

Apparently 1.2 million a month is the average.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/d...irearms-licensee-ffl

No tinfoil hat here; just an observation.