Anyone else run across this story. I'm trying to digest it to form an opinion, but am curious what others here know or think about it.

Link

In a stealth assault on the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution, Team Biden is compiling what gun rights groups say is an illegal database of 54 million American gun owners, a report said.

The ATF in fiscal year 2021 processed 54.7 million out-of-business records, according to an internal ATF document obtained by the Gun Owners of America, a firearms advocacy group, which was provided to the Washington Free Beacon.

“When a licensed gun store goes out of business, its private records detailing gun transactions become ATF property and are stored at a federal site in West Virginia. This practice allows the federal government to stockpile scores of gun records and has drawn outrage from gun advocacy groups that say the government is using this information to create a national database of gun owners — which has long been prohibited under U.S. law,” Free Beacon reporter Adam Kredo noted on Nov. 6.

Gun rights activists say the ATF’s actions contribute to concerns that Team Biden is trying to keep track of all Americans who own firearms, in violation of federal statutes.

The ATF procured the records on gun owners amid Team Biden’s push to alter current laws to ensure that gun records are stored permanently. Currently, gun shops can destroy their records after 20 years, thereby preventing the ATF from accessing the information in the future.

“As if the addition of over 50 million records to an ATF gun registry wasn’t unconstitutional or illegal enough, the Biden administration’s misuse of ‘out-of-business’ records doesn’t end there,” Aidan Johnston, the Gun Owners of America’s director of federal affairs, told the Free Beacon. “Instead of maintaining the right of [licensed firearm dealers] to destroy Firearm Transaction Records after 20 years, buried within Biden’s proposed regulations is a provision that would mean every single Firearm Transaction Record going forward would eventually be sent to ATF’s registry in West Virginia.”

Team Biden is proposing several new restrictions on firearms and owners, including a proposed ban on anywhere from 10 to 40 million pistol braces which are used as stabilizers on popular weapons such as AR-15s. Under these guidelines, gun owners would be ordered to register or destroy these pistol braces.

The ATF’s proposed regulations would also require gun parts to be regulated with background checks, meaning that if an individual assembled a legal homemade gun, he may be forced to submit to up to 16 different background checks.

^^^
There have been intelligent people on this very forum that suggested that this would never happen in this country.

Constructing a database made of records that are A) 20 years old or older, or B) from closed businesses, can only lead to bad data.

Since there are no requirements in MOST states for 4473 completion for private to private transfer, the data will be wrong.

There is also no requirement for me to keep track of who I sold a gun to. Nor have I ever done so-purposefully.

Yes it wrong and against the law for the .gov to even try. But the info will be incorrect partly

Meh. What are they going to do with old data that is probably pen and paper and stored in banker's boxes in shipping containers in their back parking lot? Storing records is not the same as creating a database.

Not to mention the number of records that are illegible, deceased owners, and poor data entry.

Junk in, Junk out. Feds shouldn't be doing this, but, we know how they skirt rules in the name of "safety and national security"

I saw this elsewhere,

the gist I got from is is the ATF/Biden want to extend the time that records have to be kept,
as in as a Dealer at 20 yrs I can toss my records,
they new proposal would be I have to keep them indefinitely,

or until I turn in my license



now part of that article is just trying to get folks worked over about the number received (4473's) from closed business last year,

seems like a lot of very busy shops must have went under,

or got relicensed for whatver reason (and wondering if any of that number of dispositions was from Remington going under and the reporter not realizing that disposition to other dealer would be turned in when Rem was dissolved???)



not sure how many here have dealings with the ATF ,,

so, take this as coming from a FFL/SOT that is a little shop,


if, by some chance, the ATF can get permission to scan each and every 4473 they have now, into a database, think about the time that will take,,

(remember this from the article, and multiply by the number of years since the 4473 has been a thing, (1968))


The ATF in fiscal year 2021 processed 54.7 million out-of-business records,


so, after it is all done, how accurate do you think it will be,


here is a good indicator,

the ATF has had a database of all NFA firearms since 1934,
that database jumped up in size considerably a few years ago with some silencer regulations were proposed,


now, back to the FFL / SOT thing,

each FFL is supposed to be audited at least once before renewal, so once every 3 yrs,

some go more, (the Cooties put a big stop to it for a bit) but those non mandate states have been getting some inspections,

now, each and every time I have been inspected, the ATF guy (not an agent, a compliance guy) pulls out a separate list from the NFA branch of the NFA stuff I should have,

it is never correct

the business I own was my Fathers, when he passed I had to close his license down,
the local ATF guys were great help, (truly a good group of folks) and eventually took all the paperwork etc as per law,
all the NFA stuff was sold, disposed etc,
as in that license number had 0 inventory at the end,

zero, 0, nada, nilch,


fast forward a few years and I have a new FFL , but not a SOT, (at that time)
ATF shows, does the audit, and then pulls out a list of NFA stuff I supposedly had in inventory,

ATF guy looks at the list,, realizes I don't have a SOT, and then says I guess you don't have this or any records do you?

I said nope, I put them (records) in the trunk of your car a couple years ago,



fast forward 3 more years, and I have an SOT, and some of the stuff is still on record as being in my inventory,,,, with a different SOT number and different FFL number,,



my point,

if the NFA branch cannot managed a relatively small database (MG's, SBR's Silencers, ETC)

then you you really think that a national data base for all gun sales will work?



now not saying this to discredit any of the ATF folks , I have talked to folks in WVA in Licensing, Trace Center and NFA Branch, and all were very nice and helpful,

but the system they have is not that great,

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:
Meh. What are they going to do with old data that is probably pen and paper and stored in banker's boxes in shipping containers in their back parking lot? Storing records is not the same as creating a database.

Well it IS your government, so possible spend countless millions to have someone go through and manually put them in a computer database, even if they never do anything with it.

Why does the Left want that database so bad? It will be bad for innocent, liberty loving individuals if we allow the feds to keep a database even if inaccurate at first. Allow them the precedent and we’ll see Australia style tyranny in the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
Why does the Left want that database so bad? It will be bad for innocent, liberty loving individuals if we allow the feds to keep a database even if inaccurate at first. Allow them the precedent and we’ll see Australia style tyranny in the USA.

The point is, the Fed is taking initial steps to doing this. Given this criminal administrations complete disregard for the constitution, who really thinks they won’t ignore some pesky old regulations prohibiting firearms registration by the .gov?

The water the frog is in always starts out cold. The last thing we should be doing is tolerating them taking an inch that will inevitably turn into a mile in the not too distant future.

If the fed.gov is prohibited by law from creating a national gun registry, yet is building a multi-source database that includes CURRENT information (i.e,, they put every Multiple Handgun and Rifle Sale report (rifles in AZ, CA, NM, TX only), plus stolen gun records, plus every firearm trace, plus, plus, plus, into it), do you really think that they will stop there?

Do we really think the fed.govies with malicious intent are incapable of falsifying information they claim comes from that database?

How would you ever prove that the gun used to shoot some politician that the fed.gov claims you currently own was actually sold in a legal private sale 30 years ago or that you never owned it?

I used to trust law enforcement officers at all levels, but after what was done to President Trump, Scooter Libby, Martha Stewart (to name but a few), I no longer assume they are honest.

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:
Meh. What are they going to do with old data that is probably pen and paper and stored in banker's boxes in shipping containers in their back parking lot? Storing records is not the same as creating a database.

Hey, its a start!

I have complete faith in our government to use it for evil.

Canada has 1/10 the population of United States. They tried it and failed miserably with a $2 billion program.


Anybody that’s ever worked with gooberment knows just how they suboptimal, ineffective, inefficient and obtuse these pecker-breathed agencies will fail.

I am thinking creating such a database is a nearly impossible scale data entry project. They would have to hire an army of data entry clerks.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Feds shouldn't be doing this, but, we know how they skirt rules in the name of "safety and national security"

That was more my focus. But then again, the laws in this country don't really mean much anymore to certain groups.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
Canada has 1/10 the population of United States. They tried it and failed miserably with a $2 billion program.

So 20 billion wasted to start...

Michigan has handgun registration. However it's all paper records and there is no record requirement when a handgun is sold or given to a relative. It was put in place in 1913.

Then about this, nearly 110 years of paper records and are likely to be organized by date or county, or worse yet original owners name. Yeah, it will be dead easy to find the original owner of a specific handgun. As in when the poor fool doing the search DIES from old age.

I do not like it when the Fed decides to break the law but if these records are on PAPER it's not concerning. Because searching a paper database this large isn't practical. What is much more concerning for me is the NICS background checks because you can be very certain those records are digital and accessible to quick simple searches. Fortunately for me most of my long gun purchases took place when the CPL exemption was in force in Michigan, now the damned Potheads spoiled that option. IIRC the only long gun purchases I've made that are on the NCIS database are two O/U shotguns, so they won't peg me as a potential "assault" gun owner.

quote:

if, by some chance, the ATF can get permission to scan each and every 4473 they have now, into a database, think about the time that will take,,

Won't take long at all. Especially with the new forms.

I hate the be the bearer of bad news……….

Anyone that has ever filled out a 4473……….

The feds know.

t

quote:

hey would have to hire an army of data entry clerks.

Maybe they could they teach 87,000 new IRS agents how to read and type?

So when you close a business you turn over your book to the ATF, so... did the ATF receive 54 million records from closed businesses?

Or did they acquire 54 million records outside of this long standing practice?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OttoSig,