quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
OK I don't support the ATF in general. But on this decision (argue all you want its legality we shall see what the courts do) the situation is about as good as it can get for the owner.
- tax stamp is free
- no 922r
- no engraving
- no waiting to use it like a normal F1

The only 'gotcha' that I can see is the the ATF in a revised ruling that previously said the you can use it till its approved or denied has said that's in its braced configuration only. I can't imagine that holding up in courts as it’s either an SBR or not, but who wants that fight. From the moment you have the F1 have at it with a stock. I can't see anyone keeping the brace, but in a practical sense a couple of people I have met have said that the brace is good enough for them and they aren't changing it after they SBR it.

For those who live in Free America and want an SBR, it’s a freebie. A big win. Even for those who live in Free America and would prefer a braced pistol with no NFA item restrictions or don’t want to get on another government list, this isn’t such a big win. For those who have a braced pistol and live in a state that doesn’t allow NFA items, it is tantamount to a taking.

Damn, this is a nice spot.
This is just a note to the nice folks who responded.
And especially the couple who reached out individually to offer guidance. Some very, very kind gestures.
I don’t follow the Forum as closely as I would like to, but I am always struck by the civility, and the generosity of the tone here.
Thank you to the individuals, and to Para for establishing and maintaining such a classy and gracious spot.

Seeking guidance from those that have filed an eForm1 for a B&T Pistol. As I've got a couple of B&T Pistols I was considering 'SBRing' anyway, all of the advantages provided by Rule 2021R-8F 'Pistol Brace Amnesty' (and pointed out by 'hrcjon' in a previous post) make it a no-brainer decision to file, especially considering I already have other SBR's anyway.

My understanding has always been that all info on the Form re: the Firearm is supposed to be 'Exactly as Engraved' on the receiver/serialized part. Of course, that raises a couple of questions as I was attempting to add the firearm to the eForm1.

Manufacturer: Per the drop down menus in place on the eForms site, there are three applicable choices here: B&T AG - Switzerland, B&T USA LLC - United States, and Brugger & Thomet - Switzerland. Both Firearms are engraved with the 'B&T Logo', but only one is engraved with 'Thun, Switzerland'. Both however, are engraved with the Importer marks of B&T USA - Tampa, FL. I'm inclined to go with B&T USA here as it's the only thing that's 'exactly as engraved' on both Pistols, but wondering what opinions others who have filed may have on this subject?

Serial Number: The instructions indicate "If adding a serial number: Serial numbers must contain one Roman number and no special characters, exception is hyphen or space." My S/N's have both a hyphen and a space, however the eForms system will not let me type either of those into the field and the format for the Serial# of my Pistols include both; "US xx-xxxxx" and "US xx-xxxxxX". Do I just type it in w/o any space or hyphen and/or can it be edited later, or do I include pics of the engraving and ATF will edit the form data as appropriate? Please advise your thoughts on this. Thanks

This message has been edited. Last edited by: nhracecraft,

If we file a stamp under this rule as a individual. Do we need the CLEO sign off? Skip that section? Filed many as a trust but none as a individual.

quote:

Originally posted by myrottiety:
If we file a stamp under this rule as a individual. Do we need the CLEO sign off? Skip that section? Filed many as a trust but none as a individual.

The CLEO sign off is gone.
Simple notification now.

CLEO approval is no longer a thing, as of 2016. You now just have to notify them by sending them a copy of your Form 1.


Edit:

You also aren't getting a stamp because the law requires collection of $200 which isn't occurring

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Manufacturer: Per the drop down menus in place on the eForms site, there are three applicable choices here: B&T AG - Switzerland, B&T USA LLC - United States, and Brugger & Thomet - Switzerland. Both Firearms are engraved with the 'B&T Logo', but only one is engraved with 'Thun, Switzerland'. Both however, are engraved with the Importer marks of B&T USA - Tampa, FL. I'm inclined to go with B&T USA here as it's the only thing that's 'exactly as engraved' on both Pistols, but wondering what opinions others who have filed may have on this subject?

I met with my FFL today to get digital fingerprints and double check that I had all my stuff ready to file. He brought this up on his own. I paraphrase, but "The drop down box may have something other than exactly what is on your receiver for a manufacturer. This is stuff other people have typed in and the list is just populating from that. If there's not a choice that's exactly what's on your receiver, then type in exactly what is on your receiver." I had read your post before I went over there, and that addressed it I think perfectly.

Going to start all this nonsense tonight after I get my kid to bed.

I've done an easy dozen B&T APC's to SBR's. All mine were imported as pistols. The answer for all of mine is B&T AG Switzerland. B&T USA is the importer normally but not the mfg. BUT there are small number of guns that couldn't be imported that B&T USA brought in as parts and built and B&T USA was the actual mfg. and are so marked. But you would likely know if you bought one of those. I have lots and lots of these and they all have swiss markings, so yours having none is very odd since they couldn't get it in the country without it. If you want to email me pics glad to look. But it would be really really odd there is not a swiss marking on it.

quote:

You also aren't getting a stamp because the law requires collection of $200 which isn't occurring

Can you back that up with some evidence or commentary? I've now seen a few of these amnesty ones in person and they have a tax stamp. The only difference seems to be the conditions section.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:

quote:

You also aren't getting a stamp because the law requires collection of $200 which isn't occurring

Can you back that up with some evidence or commentary? I've now seen a few of these amnesty ones in person and they have a tax stamp. The only difference seems to be the conditions section.

Mine were returned electronically, signed and marked approved with no picture of a tax stamp. Conditions section does note the pistol brace ruling.

Has anybody else had trouble using the E-Forms site? I have been trying everyday since this weekend and I still can't get past the update personal info page without that damn blue spinning circle popping up telling me not to refresh the page. I have tried 3 different browsers on 2 computers with the same results.

quote:

Originally posted by ridja75:

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:

quote:

You also aren't getting a stamp because the law requires collection of $200 which isn't occurring

Can you back that up with some evidence or commentary? I've now seen a few of these amnesty ones in person and they have a tax stamp. The only difference seems to be the conditions section.

Mine were returned electronically, signed and marked approved with no picture of a tax stamp. Conditions section does note the pistol brace ruling.

I had heard this but this confirms it. Very interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by SF1911:
Has anybody else had trouble using the E-Forms site? I have been trying everyday since this weekend and I still can't get past the update personal info page without that damn blue spinning circle popping up telling me not to refresh the page. I have tried 3 different browsers on 2 computers with the same results.

I tried and tried to E-file, could never get it to stick. You might be in a similar boat. I had a lot of different problems, including it dumping info when I got right to the end. I didn't try a VPN or anything like that. Snail mail counts to the date you sign your forms..

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I've done an easy dozen B&T APC's to SBR's. All mine were imported as pistols. The answer for all of mine is B&T AG Switzerland. B&T USA is the importer normally but not the mfg. BUT there are small number of guns that couldn't be imported that B&T USA brought in as parts and built and B&T USA was the actual mfg. and are so marked. But you would likely know if you bought one of those. I have lots and lots of these and they all have swiss markings, so yours having none is very odd since they couldn't get it in the country without it. If you want to email me pics glad to look. But it would be really really odd there is not a swiss marking on it.

The pistol is question is a B&T KH9, and the markings on it are no different than any other KH9 I've seen on the internet. This pic is representative of nearly all of the markings on the KH9.



The only add'l markings are the importer marks located on the bottom of the receiver on either side of the 6 o-clock Picatinny Rail, indicating B&T USA and Tampa, FL. This was a limited production Pistol, so this 'may' have been overlooked by B&T, but Switzerland is not shown anywhere on the receiver, hence my question.

I've seen multiple references on the internet (I know) indicating that B&T AG and B&T USA have been used interchangeably and both approved by the ATF, so for what it's worth, there's that. I guess this question would be similar to the scenario if one had a SIG553 Pistol they were going to SBR on a Form 1. Would you list SAN - Switzerland as the manufacturer, or would you list SIG - Exeter, NH?

Curiously (or not), B&T changed the way they marked the KH9-SD when it was released, adding Thun, Switzerland to the Receiver. They actually moved the manufacturer markings to the opposite side of the receiver as seen in the following pic.



The above marking are similar to that on my B&T APC308, which was a limited production configuration in that it has a 13" Barrel, and NOT the 'more' common 14.5" barrel w/ the P&W Flash Hider, which could be made into a Rifle by simply adding a stock. On the APC308, the B&T USA markings are on the fixed barrel and visible through the M-Lok/vent on the side of the Receiver, and the Serial# for the pistol configuration w/ the 13" Barrel ends in 'X'.

Though I've got plenty of Form 4 experience, this is my first Form 1, so I 'may' be overthinking this. Regardless, I'm just trying to be accurate and would prefer not to have my Form 1 jacked up/delayed unnecessarily.

Might be a silly question, but just want to confirm.

I’ve decided I am not going to fill out the form and go the SBR route.

If I just remove the brace and have a bare buffer tube on my AR pistol it remains a pistol and all is good correct?

One of the main reasons I have it is I can keep a loaded “pistol” in the car, but loaded rifle is a no-no.

If I SBR it, it is no longer a pistol. Along with all the other issues one of my main reasons for it is no longer allowed.


As long as I ditch the brace I am still good correct?

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
As long as I ditch the brace I am still good correct?

Just taking the brace off is enough. For now. I would expect the ATF to go back to "constructive intent" type bullshit later, but for now you can just restore the firearm.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
As long as I ditch the brace I am still good correct?

Just taking the brace off is enough. For now. I would expect the ATF to go back to "constructive intent" type bullshit later, but for now you can just restore the firearm.

Thanks, brace will not be retained. If this all gets tossed, I’ll just buy a new one when the dust clears.

If you're going to do that, it may be worth the extra investment to get one of these, or similar:

https://phase5wsi.com/ar-15-pistol-buffer-tube.html

So I haven't done a form 1 since 2016 and that was under a trust.

My question with this process is how to handle the fingerprints. Do we scan them and upload them? If not, do we need a fingerprint card for each form I submit?

quote:

Originally posted by walker77:
So I haven't done a form 1 since 2016 and that was under a trust.

My question with this process is how to handle the fingerprints. Do we scan them and upload them? If not, do we need a fingerprint card for each form I submit?

If you don’t have an electronic version of your finger prints, .eft format to submit with eForms, you will have to mail in your finger print cards with the provided cover letter.