quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Solar is very popular in a whole lot of places with "actual winter."

Solar is not "decades away from being a good idea." Solar technology has been around since the 60's. It is a mature technology that can only improve.

My wife and I recently returned from a trip to the Netherlands. Many, many people there have solar. It has essentially become a commodity item, there. So much so the boyfriend of one of my nieces-in-law and one of my brothers-in-law were actually researching the materials list for a solar system for the former's parents' home, which the boy was going to install himself. That's how common/commodity solar has become there.

As for "real winter": Their winters are usually mild, with relatively little snowfall, but it can get cold and Amsterdam's latitude is 9° north of the top of Michigan's Upper Peninsula.

Mind you: I'm certain the Dutch government heavily-subsidizes renewable energy efforts, there.

My wife and I are senior citizens. Plus our small ranch home has a hip roof--leaving relatively little southern exposure with room for it. Otherwise I would definitely be looking into solar.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
No actual experience, but AFAIK Dominion doesn't offer net metering, unless there has been a change.

For Pete's SAKE.

Guys. Please stop doing this. If you have no experience with a topic, just don't comment.

Please let members who have the knowledge and experience answer an OPs question. It is the best way for members to get the help they need.

Reread the last sentence. I guess it changed. I researched it. Hell I spent months designing a mostly off grid house for my fourth year of electrical class.

I've done the electrical for a number of solar City installs. Sorry my knowledge is a few months out of date.

When did they start the net metering? Also how do they do it with analog meters? Seeing how I just got a digital meter a few months ago I'm really curious about that part.

Comment on what you do know. Not what you don't. Very simple. If everyone could do that, we'd all benefit.

I've had solar panels on a few yachts. Now it's slightly different than a house. But I've never seen the solar panels put out what they are rated for. Even on a bright sunny day, I'd usually see around 60-70% output. From researching the costs, the pay back never would come in soon enough to repay the system, before the system's life was over when compared to the U.S. electric prices. Usually a 15-20 year payback, and the solar panels start degrading before that. I don't feel the technology is far enough along yet.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
I've had solar panels on a few yachts. Now it's slightly different than a house. But I've never seen the solar panels put out what they are rated for. Even on a bright sunny day, I'd usually see around 60-70% output. From researching the costs, the pay back never would come in soon enough to repay the system, before the system's life was over when compared to the U.S. electric prices. Usually a 15-20 year payback, and the solar panels start degrading before that. I don't feel the technology is far enough along yet.

Jimmy, you don't know enough about solar if you believe it is "not far enough along yet." Also, you don't need to comment on every one of these threads. Try dialing it back.

Gross Cost: $46,000.00 (40 panels)
30% Fed $13,800.00 (Tax Credits)
35% State $14,600.00 (Tax Credits)
Net Cost: $17,600

• Hyundai Industries
• Monocrystalline Panel (350) 40 optimizers 14KW system
• 10 Year Workmanship Warranty
• 25 Performance Warranty

This is what I was offered. My home electricity usage was at least $350.00 - $400.00 mo. prior to installing the PV system (40 panels), last year. Split A/C system (4 bedroom home), so I figure it will take me a little over 4 years to break even based on the conservative $350.00 mo. figure. From what I understand the Fed. Tax Credit% will be coming down soon. I would avoid "PV Leasing", too many problems especially if you ever sell your home and you don't "own" the PV system on the roof. To me, if you can utilize the tax credits PV is a good idea, think the credits can be carried forward if you don't use of all it in one tax year, but check with your tax expert about that.

quote:

Originally posted by rpm2010:
This is what I was offered. My home electricity usage was at least $350.00 - $400.00 mo. prior to installing the PV system (40 panels), last year. Split A/C system (4 bedroom home), so I figure it will take me a little over 4 years to break even based on the conservative $350.00 mo. figure. From what I understand the Fed. Tax Credit% will be coming down soon. I would avoid "PV Leasing", too many problems especially if you ever sell your home and you don't "own" the PV system on the roof. To me, if you can utilize the tax credits PV is a good idea, think the credits can be carried forward if you don't use of all it in one tax year, but check with your tax expert about that.

I have a lease, so I didn't get any subsidy, and don't have access to the Srecs. Which is how lease companies make their money. If someone does a lease, they need to make sure that they understand their contract. The one upside to the lease, is that if anything breaks, I don't have to pay for it. The reality is that solar equipment rarely fails, almost like a PC, if it doesn't fail in the first year, it's going to last a loooooong time.

I have buyouts structured into my contract, I will probably do it at some point. I wouldn't do a lease without options to buy out.

Whether leasing or purchasing the system, I'd advise people to consider how long they plan on being in the home. Systems will typically beat the "payoff" estimate, and even if they come in on time, you still want maximum usage after it has paid for itself.

Solar shouldn't be an impulse thing, and I would not trust cold call salesmen. Buy it if at all possible, but make sure you really do your research, and know your power usage for the last few years, etc.

I don't have Solar, but I did drive by a Holiday Inn Express last month, and did a thread on this

Link to the Thread

Its best to do the homework, I've looked at it and live in FL, the gunshine state, you'd think it's a no brainer, but there are several things regarding payback that you have to consider.

1) Roof placement - South is best for panels
2) Do you Lease or buy
3) Tax credits, not all states offer tax credits, ie Florida has no income tax ergo, no income tax credits.
4) SCRS participation, If you are in an area where this is possible great, if not, it extends your payoff period. SRECTrade Link

In short you are trading payment from one company to another when you go solar, but you still have a payment. If you pay cash, you forfeit any gain on that cash you'd have made in the market.

This swap of payments for electricty from ABC Energy to EFG Solar will go on for some period of time before you break even/out. Get your average electric bill, find the net cost of solar and do the math.
Remember, either way you are still paying for power, it's not free...

Mine came out to 20+ years, financially it's not a winner, however, that presumes we have stable energy rates and global warming doesn't cause us to run the AC longer. If it does we'll sell the house and move to TN in the mountains and buy a house with it already installed.

The value of solar to a new homeowner really depends on your buyers, same as a gated community, some won't buy in one, others won't buy without a gate.

Shop, compare, check the laws, rules, payback terms in your state then see how you do. Folks in MA have more tax credits so they payback faster, however they pay a shitload more taxes than FL residents do... (we are zero)

We have panels, but they provide the house with off-grid power. We still get a PG&E bill for the wells, the barn, and the gate. For the cost of pulling power from the 12KV line up to the house, we could have put in five of the systems we did, each complete with a 8KV propane powered backup generator. I’m always leery of these financial deals. Someone spent a lot of time figuring out a deal that would be good for the company and look good for the customer. I’m not sure that actually being a good deal for the customer even makes an appearance on the priority list.

Have a system in PA. Yes, we get snow. 11KW. System. Mounted on pole barn with metal roof. Have had it for 9+ years.

We own it, get SREC credits for it, in essence I am a small electric company. My “energy credits” get sold back to the electric company and they then get credit for using green energy.

It cut our energy bill about 75%. In the winter the shorter days and snow on the panels cut the production rate. 7-9 months of the year we produce a surplus. We get credit for that as the meter runs backwards, showing our surplus.

Home insurance plan covers our system. Lightening damaged one of our inverters (36vdc to 220vac) and a controller. While it took a while for the service company to sort out and get back on line, insurance paid for it.

Our system paid off itself about 2 years ago.

Our home is approximately 2200sq.ft. Three heating/AC zones. We have geothermal HVAC. We are slowly changing to high efficiency lights, but haven’t used up our old bulbs yet. No battery back up, when the grid goes down, the solar system shuts down too. We do have a generator that I have yet to use.

Installed, there is nothing to do except report SRECS at the end of each month. The company that manages them also gets the report automatically through the modem/web link.

I do not make special efforts to save electric energy. My home shop tools use 110, 220 and three phase power. Our well has a 220v pump. I also have two welders in the barn.

Panels on the barn are on “legs”, standing several inches above the metal. No panels on the house itself. Power generated goes from barn to house to grid. I can shut it down at the barn or the house through manual switches. This would be necessary if I wanted to use the generator.

When we did the install there were rebate incentives from both state and federal govts. State sent us a check when we showed proof in install (they also came out and approved site and orientation). Federal rebate was a tax offset - we paid less taxes over several years.
Total savings there was about 40%.

Yes - we would do it again. Yes, it adds value to the house. No, in this case it does not detract from the esthetics of the house. We are retired, 60 something and have built the house (30 years ago) for our senior years. It is a ranch, all on one level and already adapted for easy access, walk in shower, minimal steps etc.

Finally, I believe cost has come down. Don’t know where others have got their numbers, but the panels are VERY efficient, I think exceeding 90%. New ones should be even better.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:Buy it if at all possible, but make sure you really do your research, and know your power usage for the last few years, etc.

There's the rub.

A few years ago, about the time Zero announced he was killing-off incandescent bulbs, we went out and spent a bunch of money on LED bulbs. Only after doing that did we figure out it would take longer then the lives of the bulbs to break even on the expense.

Oops!

Solar, for us, I'm sure would be worse. By orders of magnitude. ±1300 sqft. ranch. Highest electric bills are $230, give or take. Rarely much higher, and can be much lower during mild, wet warm season weather or mild cold season weather.

For me, solar would be more for the technical challenge, the geek factor, than anything else.

Maybe when it gets even more economical and, like in NL, becomes something one can DIY, it'll make sense. By then we may no longer be in the house, though.

Yeah when power is cheap, you can do it for the geek factor or "environmentalist," nevermind all the resources needed to build the system. Where the price per KWh is high, it literally pays off.

quote:

Originally posted by rpm2010:
Gross Cost: $46,000.00 (40 panels)
30% Fed $13,800.00 (Tax Credits)
35% State $14,600.00 (Tax Credits)
Net Cost: $17,600
...

I'm not knocking you or anyone else who takes advantage of the credits, but if it takes the rest if us paying 65% of the cost to make solar financially viable for the individual homeowner, then it's not currently ready for the market. I appreciate your posting actual numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by rpm2010:
Gross Cost: $46,000.00 (40 panels)
30% Fed $13,800.00 (Tax Credits)
35% State $14,600.00 (Tax Credits)
Net Cost: $17,600
...

I'm not knocking you or anyone else who takes advantage of the credits, but if it takes the rest if us paying 65% of the cost to make solar financially viable for the individual homeowner, then it's not currently ready for the market. I appreciate your posting actual numbers.

If it can't stand on it's own there is a real problem. More of a liberal pipedream at this point.

quote:

Originally posted by kramden:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
I'm not knocking you or anyone else who takes advantage of the credits, but if it takes the rest if us paying 65% of the cost to make solar financially viable for the individual homeowner, then it's not currently ready for the market. I appreciate your posting actual numbers.

If it can't stand on it's own there is a real problem. More of a liberal pipedream at this point.

Frankly, if individual homeowners can't have a tax break or subsidy, why should anyone?

If the government funding something means it's not ready....:

https://thinkbynumbers.org/gov...e-vs-social-welfare/

https://www.cato.org/publicati...idizes-us-businesses

https://www.washingtonpost.com...nners-in-each-state/

https://subsidytracker.goodjob....org/top-100-parents

Peruse these articles and websites, and let me know if it's OK to just shovel taxpayer money into corporations. We could talk about the financial industry bailouts, fannie mae and freddy mac, and the auto industry bailouts as well... I say if the tax credits for solar are such a problem, there should be NO taxpayer dollars propping up private business.

At least with solar, the benefit to a homeowner is evident, as well as the production of clean energy. Without the tax credits and incentives, all that happens is the system takes longer to pay for itself. Which it will do, because solar does actually work. Power prices don't typically go down. Here we are in the midst of the highest oil and gas production in years, power isn't likely to get cheaper than it is now. When it does go up in price, and it will, having solar is a bulwark against that, and it steepens the curve of payoff of the array.

If you're going to complain about taxpayers paying for solar, boy howdy the list of shit the government doles out cash for must keep you up at night.

In NY the state gives you a tax credit to install solar, then your county may come around and assess the pannels as an inprovement there by resulting in a net loss at the end of the tax year. Also, I know people who have had trouble sellng a house with solar on it because you're stuck with the lease agreement and potential buyers may not want the pannels or the added cost.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

Frankly, if individual homeowners can't have a tax break or subsidy, why should anyone?

I agree which is why I said I'm not knocking anyone that has done it. My only point is it isn't financially viable if it requires a 65% contribution of other peoples' money to make it work.

I have panels on my roof. The actual cost was about half the quoted price, due to a rebate from the power company and tax credits. I bought outright, not leased. Our power bill is usually single digits. I don't know how long it will take to recoup my capital costs by way of savings. I actually think of the panel costs as being a home improvement and would, in general, expect to recover costs after the home sale. Much like a minor remodel. Knowing what I know now, I would go with solar panels again, in a heart beat. My long range plan was to get an electric car and use the panels to charge the car, in lieu of gas.

Everyone thank you for sharing your experiences and information. I have listed some of the questions I will be asking with my father when we have the meeting later this week. God Bless !!!

• Who owns the system? Is this lease, own, or rent to own?
  
  
• If someone other than the home owner owns the system, what happens if the home owner wants to sell the home?
  
  
• How much is the system?
  
  
• Is there any cost to the home owner?
  
  
• Is there any incentives, discounts, etc. from government, state, etc?
  
  
• Is there any warranty and if so how long?
  
  
• Who is responsible for maintenance and repairs?
  
  
• How long do the batteries last? Any warranty on batteries? Cost of replacement batteries?
  
  
• Panels can get hot, how does this affect the roof, does roof get hot too increasing AC usage?
  
  
• During a power outage can the system be used to output power like a generator?
  
  
• Where is the DC to AC conversion box installed at? The panel outside the house or inside. If inside how much space is needed for everything?
  
  
• When selling back electricity back to DP, does the owner receive cash, credit, etc.?
  
  
• What is the rate of the amount given back to the owner is it standard rate that they are normally charged or is it a discounted rate and if so how much is it?
  
  
• Are there any examples of homes in the neighborhood
  
  

I suggest visiting Solar Panel Talk's website. While the board owner can get a little snarky, there's tons of valuable information.