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This message has been edited. Last edited by: synthplayer,

synthplayer, thanks for the post.

As always, the Hillsdale publication is well written and informative.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
synthplayer, thanks for the post.

As always, the Hillsdale publication is well written and informative.

Yes it is. Not to mention disturbing as hell. Where will it end?

quote:

Originally posted by Tn226:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
synthplayer, thanks for the post.

As always, the Hillsdale publication is well written and informative.

Yes it is. Not to mention disturbing as hell. Where will it end?

Maybe when it’s burned to the ground like the Branch Dividian compound. Maybe not even then.

We have allowed the kids to have all sorts of new and powerful toys. We cannot be surprised when the kids insist on playing with their toys.

Seriously, what kid wants to have a pleasant sit-down face-to-face talk with a guy when they can get all their friends together, put on their Tactical Tommy costumes, use a battering ram on a door, and drag the guy out of bed in the middle of the night?

Why waste a day riding around in unmarked sedans wearing business casual when they can take out the armored vehicles and roar around town with tactical comms, night vision, thermal imagers, and automatic weapons?

What good is it to have all the toys and keep them locked up during play time?

The only difference between the Feds and the Boy Scouts is one has adult leadership.

One of these days they're going to pick the wrong house, and I hope that day is soon.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
One of these days they're going to pick the wrong house, and I hope that day is soon.

I don’t. I hope that we get adult leadership in DC and PDJT holds accountable, criminally prosecutes, and imprisons those responsible, then either completely dismantles the massive cluster function that is the ATF, or guts and reforms it from the ground up.

Of course, if those involved decided that they couldn’t live what they had done and checked themselves out, that wouldn’t break my heart at all. I’d hate to see an American citizen be forced to take up arms against the government, however justified it might be.

Edited to fix cluster trying to type on a phone. I’m really not as illiterate as it would appear reading the original.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: slosig,

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
One of these days they're going to pick the wrong house, and I hope that day is soon.

Undoubtedly, they would use an incident like you're contemplating to extend their "authority" and use even more draconian tactics.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
One of these days they're going to pick the wrong house, and I hope that day is soon.

My initial response to this was "That's pretty fucked up. These are just the rank and file guys, it's the 'upper management' that needs to go!"

Then I recall the part about not only did the ATF guys not have their body cams on, the Little Rock PD didn't either. So not one of them, from either agency, were like "Wait a minute, we're supposed to have these cams on. WTF is going on here?"

That speaks volumes to me.

Based on my read of the US Constitution, AND Federal Law, the ATF does NOT have the authority to impose the Death Penalty!

This thread dovetails well with the current "How many guns can I sell before I need my own FFL?" thread linked below. If one has not done so already, I encourage all non-FFL collector/hobbyist members who sell firearms even occasionally to familiarize themselves with the new federal definition of "Engaged in the Business" as outlined in the ATF Final Rule. The overlapping and wide interpretive nature of the verbiage has the potential to cover nearly all private sales - even those to or facilitated through a licensed FFL dealer. While the US District Court of Northern Texas has issued an injunction in State of Texas et al v. Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives et al it only covers the plaintiffs in the case. Until this case is final, becoming informed of the details of the new rule is one's best defense.

Lin to SIGforum thread
https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/9430029594

Link to Final Rule: Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Dealer in Firearms
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/f...ness-dealer-firearms

quote:

Originally posted by architect:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
One of these days they're going to pick the wrong house, and I hope that day is soon.

Undoubtedly, they would use an incident like you're contemplating to extend their "authority" and use even more draconian tactics.

Snowball comes to mind. Would each side ratchet up their response until - who knows?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tn226,

If I lose money on every firearm I sell, am I engaged in "business"? The ATF would say yes, just not very good at business.

But it's easy to see the ATF's "justification" for the raids:

The suspect is ILLEGALLY DEALING IN FIREARMS. That means the suspect is an ARMED CRIMINAL and thus can be considered DANGEROUS. As such, all the tactical silliness and pre-dawn timing is justified, FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE AGENTS AND OFFICERS.

How many other LE agencies and departments use the same criteria? Known armed means go all tactical on them?

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Known armed means go all tactical on them?

[sarcasm, mostly]
Pfft. By that logic, nearly anyone in three counties around me would require a tactical team's participation if they were being arrested. [/sarcasm, mostly].

My biggest take away from this when it landed in our mailbox last week was the full participation by local LE with the Feds.

Not to throw any shade on any of the coppers I work with on a regular basis or any of you here. However, it's disturbing that despite what I hear on a regular basis that rank and file cops would not comply with orders to round up guns or go against lawful citizens who own guns, it's become hard to believe what is and isn't the reality on this.

Isn't the governor of AR one of the good guys (or gals)? Why is she not holding Little Rock cops super accountable on this, ruining careers, prosecuting collaborators and letting all other state and local cops in AR know that they will pay a price for this kind of NKVD-like behavior? Hell, why wouldn't she go after the ATF agents involved too? Surely, most of them live in AR.