Page 1 2
Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
Member |
I know selling them privately on local chat boards or Armslist could attract some attention. I have a buddy who was put through the process by ATF and got away with a warning letter and a lot of legal fees. But does that only apply to private, face to face sales? Or, if I decide to thin the herd via Gunbroker, which means the guns are going to FFLs and being transferred, is that ok without limit? | ||
|
| Victim of Life's Circumstances  |
In Indiana selling ftf private party leaves no trail. ________________________ God spelled backwards is dog | |||
|
| Member |
Same in AZ. My friend who got in trouble had bought batches of stuff others were blowing out or liquidating in a "going out of business" sale kind of thing. He'd hold onto them for a while, customize, then sell to rotate his collection. When one ended up in a crime scene (several owners down the line) and they traced it back to the FFL here, they saw my friend had bought five or more AR lowers in one transaction. And that made them suspect he was selling more than he could reasonably sell without getting his FFL. Obviously, selling on GB leaves a definite trail. | |||
|
Invest Early, Invest Often |
Back when I was in Kalifornia you were limited to either 5 or 6 transactions per year, after that you were considered a "Dealer". But each transaction could be more than 1 item. But also in Kalifornia all transfers have to go through a FFL. | |||
|
Oriental Redneck |
No such number.
That's bullshit right there. Q | |||
|
| Oriental Redneck |
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/d...ll-firearms/download
Q | |||
|
| Member |
Every word of that reads like it's an opinion and not a law. I don't want to be the test case, but AFAIK, there is no number of sales mentioned in a law that makes someone into a dealer vs. one less sale making someone rotating their collection totally legal without an FFL. I've sold plenty of guns for huge profits, but that wasn't my motive at all. It just so happened that, when the time came to rotate some of out of the collection, their prices had skyrocketed. Not my fault that I have a knack for buying low and selling high. I have been buying about one SIG a month for a while and the time is coming to rotate some safe queens out of the collection. I'd never go through the rigamaroll of getting an FFL for that, as I'm only doing it to free up funds and space in the the gun safe for others I want more. | |||
|
Wait, what? |
I love the ubiquitous term “on the internet”. As if people are selling guns online Willy-nilly. If i sold a hundred guns a year and did all my dealings through FFL transfers, it is horse shit to say I am trying to sell without an FFL. The FFL’s involved with the transfers ARE THE FFL DEALERS, not me. This is a clear attempt to attack not only law abiding citizens with their own property, but the ability to even transfer them at all. “Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown | |||
|
Shall Not Be Infringed |
MOST of what the ATF does in regards to enforcement actions / regulating firearms is based on what either reads like or is simply their (current?) opinion and/or interpretation of regulations NOT actually written into law!  ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Save America! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
|
| Member |
Well, this is kind of my question. If I sell through GB, it's obviously as traceable as the day is long because it's on the Internet and goes through an FFL. Do those sales count toward some secret number that, if I exceed it, I'm now dealing guns without an FFL? Hell yeah, I plan to make a profit on some of these guns. It's not my reason for selling them, but I'm sure not selling them for below market value to remove any appearance of profit motive. | |||
|
| Shall Not Be Infringed |
^^^This IS the problem...Law abiding gun owners consistently trying their damnedest to be in compliance with the law, when often there's absolutely ZERO clarity on what the law is, and the ATF seemingly making it up as they go along! ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Save America! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
|
quarter MOA visionary |
While selling off your collection is perfectly legal ~ it is advised to be careful on where and how. ATF is on a witch hunt and look for every opportunity to restrict the second ammendment. How you do that depends on how many and how soon you need to sell. Slow and deliberate and FTF when possible. You cannot be too careful now days as sad as it is.  | |||
|
Fighting the good fight |
As stated, with regard to federal laws, there's no set number (secret or otherwise). Some of the more restrictive states might have stricter laws that do set a number, but not federally. Plus the circumstances of every case are different. So there's no way to say definitively "If you sell X guns in Y time period, you're dealing". The ATF and courts looks at the totality of the circumstances, including the various factors listed by 12131. Selling a large number, like liquidating a big personal collection or an inherited estate, can be fine. Selling personal guns and making a profit can be fine. But establishing a pattern over time of repeatedly buying guns in order to flip them for a profit (like your buddy apparently was doing with his closeouts) is engaging in business, and requires a license. | |||
|
Caribou gorn |
there is no number. they look at your circumstances and determine if you bought with the intent of making profits. if you amassed a collection over 30 years and then sold off 10 guns in a year they probably wouldn't suspect you were just in for a profit. if you bought 10 and sold those same 10 in the same year, perhaps they would. it is very similar to the language of the straw purchase laws. if you buy a gun and then a few years (or even months) later, sell it to someone who was not supposed to have one, it's not a straw purchase. if you buy one and then sell it very soon to someone that you know and could have reasonably known couldn't own one, then you get in trouble. but they need to prove intent. I'm gonna vote for the funniest frog with the loudest croak on the highest log. | |||
|
For real? |
I bought 15 stripped AR lowers at once from PSA way back in the day. Kept 4. Sold the rest. No visit from the alphabet bunch. Not minority enough! | |||
|
| Shall Not Be Infringed |
FIFY  ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Save America! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
|
| Smarter than the average bear |
As others have said, there isi no set number. If it's a business, even a part time business, then you need a FFL. Factors that they will look at include how often, and the regularity of your purchases and sales. If you think the Dems are about to ban ARs and you buy 24 of them, then a week later, or the next day, you decide that's crazy and you sell all or most, that's okay. If you buy guns on sale or closeouts and regularly sell them at a profit, then you need a FFL. I see a fair number of people on local forums or classified who obviously are buying parts, assembling their "next build", and regularly selling these guns. They should have a FFL, but many don't. They certainly could be prosecuted. A personal story: Early in the rollout of the Mossberg Shockwave I decided I wanted to buy a few of them. They were scarce, but Academy would occasionally get them in. I started watching Academy's website, and when I saw one available withing a reasonable drive, I'd buy it online to be picked up at the store. I bought several like that, and when I was picking one up I noticed that they had in stock some Taurus G-2s, at a very good price. This was at a time when handguns were scarce, so I said I'll take 3 of those too. A couple of days later when I got home I had an ATF business card on my door. I called him, and the question was basically "what are you doing with all those guns?" My answer was "I like to buy guns". He wanted to come by my house to see them, and I politely declined. I said "I'm all for law and order, but it just seems wrong to invite you into my house to look at my guns. I told him that I was an attorney and an NRA instructor, that I was familiar with federal firearms laws, and that I was absolutely not flipping them or selling them to unauthorized persons. I told him that if he was concerned about them, I would email him a photo showing that I still had them. I did, and he was satisfied. He wasn't even concerned about whether or not I had an FFL. He was interested in people buying lots of guns in free states and driving them up to Chicago for example. Just my experience, but it certainly didn't seem then that they gave a shit about the business aspect of it. Now if you're participating in straw sales, I'm sure they'd tack on another charge for not having a FFL. | |||
|
Member |
It's never as simple as we or they think... I've bought at least one gun off a member of this forum as well as off gun broker and neither went through an FFL... both the sellers live here in S.C. near me. I think in my years of gun ownership I've sold maybe four guns and only one of those went out of state to an FFL. My Native American Name: "Runs with Scissors" | |||
|
| Little ray of sunshine  |
The law is that if you are a dealer, you need the FFL. What a dealer is isn't defined in the statute. So judges, through cases, define the term as indicated by the words of the statute, legislative intent, and other factors. That is the way a common law system works. Not every term is defined and the definitions build up over time via caselaw. The ATF may have its own guidelines as to what a dealer is, but it is what the courts say that actually matters. Of course, if you run afoul of what the ATF says, they will drag you through the process, but their opinion about the law isn't the law. The courts' opinion about the law is the law. A common law system has some gray in it, inherently. People don't like that, but you can't write a statute that covers every thing and every detail and every permutation of the facts. A limit on the number of sales wouldn't be a good idea. What if I inherited 30 guns, and sold all of them, and the limit was 20 in a year? I'm not "dealing" in guns, I am liquidating an inherited collection. The main thing is, as I understand it, are you regularly both buying and selling primarily to make money. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
|
Member |
My understanding of the requirements to obtain a FFL is hearsay, to be sure, but I don’t think you would even qualify to have a license in your situation. Perhaps you should seek guidance if you could even qualify as an FFL. For example, a store front. A web site. A business license. Etc. I have no idea what the requirements are, but if you could look at those, instead of the case law about selling firearms, it might be clearer. Logically, if you do not qualify to be an FFL, then you can’t have one. And, selling is perhaps logically permitted, as an individual adhering to local regulations. ------- Trying to simplify my life... | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
© SIGforum 2024