Somebody with more worldly knowledge. Please explain who started the war over there, I thought it was Russia but I heard Trump say it was Ukraine. With the U.S and Russia meeting in Saudia Araba to start peace talks without Zelensky has me wondering who's on first

It’s complicated. Opinions vary on this, but here’s a 73 page thread on the subject:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/4580095894

There's no "good guy" in this scenario. Both Russia and Ukraine are hopelessly corrupt. There has been conflict between ethnic Russians and Ukranians in the eastern regions of Ukraine for a long time, and there have been documented atrocities committed against civilians on both sides.

Paramilitary groups like the Azov Battalion have neo-Nazi affiliation and follow ultra-nationalist and racist ideology. They were operating in the east long before the Russians tried to take Kiev. Putin tried to justify his invasion as an effort to protect ethnic Russians from persecution at the hands of Neo-Nazi Ukranian groups, and there was likely some truth to this claim.

On the other hand, Russia invaded a sovereign country and has been responsible for all manner of atrocities themselves. And I'm also sure their motivation is not simply to protect the innocent and oppressed.

At this point I don't have much sympathy for either side and believe we should do what we can to end it before it gets any worse.

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Originally posted by 92fstech:
At this point I don't have much sympathy for either side and believe we should do what we can to end it before it gets any worse.

I'm mostly with you, though I would suggest a limitation that we do what we can _diplomatically_ only, no more American dollars, weapons, other support, and for damned sure no American blood. If we can help them figure it out diplomatically, great! If we can't, leave them to their own devices.

A number of stories were published by Russian media sources prior to the invasion detailing Ukrainian efforts to attack Russian civilians in neighboring terriroty with a dirty bomb or chemical weapons. Putin rightly choose to intervene and protect his people. Trump has now gone on record as labeling Zelensky a dictator with a 4% approval rating so the days of Putin = bad and Zelensky = good are over.

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Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
At this point I don't have much sympathy for either side and believe we should do what we can to end it before it gets any worse.

I'm mostly with you, though I would suggest a limitation that we do what we can _diplomatically_ only, no more American dollars, weapons, other support, and for damned sure no American blood. If we can help them figure it out diplomatically, great! If we can't, leave them to their own devices.

You and I are in agreement. Pouring more American Dollars, and definitely blood, would be what I meant by things getting worse. Our involvement going forward should be diplomatically pushing both sides towards a resolution.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
At this point I don't have much sympathy for either side and believe we should do what we can to end it before it gets any worse.

I'm mostly with you, though I would suggest a limitation that we do what we can _diplomatically_ only, no more American dollars, weapons, other support, and for damned sure no American blood. If we can help them figure it out diplomatically, great! If we can't, leave them to their own devices.

You and I are in agreement. Pouring more American Dollars, and definitely blood, would be what I meant by things getting worse. Our involvement going forward should be diplomatically pushing both sides towards a resolution.

Russia has been more than willing to negotiate but Ukraine is being difficult by refusing to accept any agreement reached by Trump and Russia. I'm not really sure there is much that can be done diplomatically if Ukraine is sticking it's fingers in its ears

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Russia has been more than willing to negotiate but Ukraine is being difficult by refusing to accept any agreement reached by Trump and Russia. I'm not really sure there is much that can be done diplomatically if Ukraine is sticking it's fingers in its ears

They'll be a lot more open to negotiations when the foreign money they depend on stops flowing in.

Ukraine’s desire to be a NATO member is what pushed Russia to war.

Imagine if China fueled a coup in Mexico that led to a pro-China government taking power and allowing Xi to station advisors and heavy weapons along the US Southern Border. Do you think the US would just sit and allow that ?

I don’t know if that pushed them, or it was about not being able to invade them once they are a NATO member/having a Russian speaking country meet NATO standards.

Now, I don’t see how Ukraine intended to meet NATO standards, but it’s basically trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Eventually, the only solution would be kill all of the oligarchs on both sides, but their populations need to realize that.

Russia started it. There is also Peter Zeihan's gate theory to consider. Ukraine and Poland closes the gate Napoleon and Hitler used to invade Russia.

I put a good portion of the blame on the US .gov / State Dept. The cause goes all the way back to 2014 and prior. Continuing NATO expansion up to Russia’s borders, the Maidan Protests and ultimately a coup which overthrew a democratically elected gov’t in Ukraine (all orchestrated by the US State Dept!) are what led to Russia annexing Crimea and ultimately the current shitshow that is the War in Ukraine! Heck, the west even talked Ukraine out of a peace agreement in it’s efforts to prolong this war!

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Originally posted by goose5:
Russia started it. There is also Peter Zeihan's gate theory to consider. Ukraine and Poland closes the gate Napoleon and Hitler used to invade Russia.

Yes Russia started it...after the Biden regime triple-dog-dared them repeatedly and goaded them into it. Trump would have NEVER let this war start had they not stolen the election from him and there would be hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian and Russian men alive today instead of rotting in mass graves.

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Originally posted by Carpentermaass84:
Imagine if China fueled a coup in Mexico that led to a pro-China government taking power and allowing Xi to station advisors and heavy weapons along the US Southern Border. Do you think the US would just sit and allow that ?

Yeah! I mean, what would happen if a country previously aligned with America right off the American coast that had previously been allied with the US had a communist supported revolution and became a communist puppet, to the point of supporting nuclear weapons on their territory.

If only there was a historical analogy to this situation we could compare the actions of what the US would do. But I checked TikTok, Instagram and MyFace and apparently there just isn't. But if there was, I'm 100% certain if that happened we would have invaded just like Russia did.

quote:

Yes Russia started it...after the Biden regime triple-dog-dared them repeatedly and goaded them into it. Trump would have NEVER let this war start had they not stolen the election from him and there would be hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian and Russian men alive today instead of rotting in mass graves.

I agree with this.

But I'm really having trouble with the current Trump anti-Zelenskyy rants. How is that a good negotiating tactic?
Yes, we had elections during the Civil War. But we had "four score and seven" years of history of democracy. Ukraine has an extremely troubled history with elections. Yanukovich was elected, then he went to sign an agreement to make Ukraine part of EU and reneged on that. That is what led to his overthrow and flight to Russia--he was a Russian mole all along.
Mind you, if Zelenskyy is still popular he would be stronger if he had elections. But does Trump have to call him a dictator? Crap, he's sounding like the Russian puppet the Left claims he was. I don't understand his tactics.

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Originally posted by nhracecraft:
I put a good portion of the blame on the US .gov / State Dept. The cause goes all the way back to 2014 and prior. Continuing NATO expansion up to Russia’s borders, the Maidan Protests and ultimately a coup which overthrew a democratically elected gov’t in Ukraine (all orchestrated by the US State Dept!) are what led to Russia annexing Crimea and ultimately the current shitshow that is the War in Ukraine! Heck, the west even talked Ukraine out of a peace agreement in it’s efforts to prolong this war!

This. Obama and his assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, Victoria Nuland supported a color revolution/regime change of a democratically elected Ukrainian president in 2014.

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Originally posted by sjtill:

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Originally posted by PASig:

Yes Russia started it...after the Biden regime triple-dog-dared them repeatedly and goaded them into it. Trump would have NEVER let this war start had they not stolen the election from him and there would be hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian and Russian men alive today instead of rotting in mass graves.

But does Trump have to call him a dictator?

He IS a dictator at this point. Do you not see how he canceled the elections they were supposed to have saying that it was "an emergency" and "unsafe" as he's jet-setting all over the world hob-knobbing with anyone he thinks will give him more money?

Trump is not wrong to call him out.

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Trump is not wrong to call him out.

IT BEGINS: President Trump Starts Peeling Back the Zelenskyy Mask

It was inevitable. We have been together from the outset of the conversation where we admitted to ourselves that sooner or later the pretending was going to have to stop. Well, here we are.

President Donald Trump begins a very uncomfortable process to peel back the mask that Ukrainian President Zelenskyy represents. This is needed.

https://theconservativetreehou...yy-mask/#more-269411

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Originally posted by Loswsmith:
If only there was a historical analogy to this situation we could compare the actions of what the US would do. But I checked TikTok, Instagram and MyFace and apparently there just isn't. But if there was, I'm 100% certain if that happened we would have invaded just like Russia did.

Your sarcasm is awesome. I’ll take what is the Cuban Missile Crisis for 100 Alex.