quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

And trying to sell the idea that the common German did know, well, that is a bit tough considering the antisemitic laws that were being passed as far back as 33, the antisemitism from 33 on, the looting of Jewish businesses and homes as the people were being displaced. Sure, maybe "some" did not completely realize the extent of the death camps, but did they even care? Where did they think they were going, on vacation?

Well, to be honest, it's one thing to know that systemic anti-Semitism attitudes and policies were happening. I don't think I've ever heard anybody (credibly) claim that they did not know about this. Some supported it; many benefitted from getting 'free stuff' from the Jews that were first persecuted and then later shipped off. Sure, they knew their Jewish neighbors were shipped off, but many simply did not care what happened to them.

But, again, what would the Germans who did not agree with these policies DO about it? Write a letter to the (state-run) newspaper? Call their congressman? Launch a #campaign against Hitler? IT WAS A POLICE STATE. Vote Hitler and the nazis out of office? Many Germans agreed with these policies, as (generally) much of Europe shared at least SOME anti-Semitic feelings. But, those who did not were incapable of affecting political change since it was a POLICE STATE.


However, it's quite another thing to suspect, know, or believe that such unthinkable mass-murder was going on. Here, I would speculate that many Germans knew or suspected it was going on, but many did not. People living hundreds of miles from the death camps had more important things (to them, personally) to worry about. Those living near the camps likely knew, but again, what were they going to do about it?

I would bet many who said "I didn't know" after the war were simply trying to lie to the Allies (and/or themselves) to avoid guilt. I can't blame them for this. The alternative was to tell people "I knew it was happening but I did nothing" and then have everybody think them as being monsters.

I finally read through all of this thread and the following from MG34_Dan:

quote:

I read a book many, many, years ago about the Allies knowledge of what the Germans were doing during the Holocaust. It could have been stopped, but the Allies chose not to.

Is absolutely correct. The Allies knew and actually had people in Auschwitz reporting what was happening and ready to attempt an organized a revolt if support could be provided. The story of Capt. Witold Pilecki is beyond amazing. The book is "The Auschwitz Volunteer: Beyond Bravery."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki

https://www.amazon.com/Auschwi...nteer+beyond+bravery

RHINOWSO's comments regarding "warriors and sheep" are spot. Combat is something you never forget and leaves a mark on your soul and psyche. To say a population deserved to be raped and tortured to teach them a lesson is utterly ignorant and an affront to men like Capt. Pilecki and many of us who have suffered, whether physically or mentally, far less than Cpt. Pilecki in service for love of country. I have many other things to say but after trying for over an hour to put them into words I just cannot get my meaning across other than what I said above.

It's always amazed me that the Nazis would still be committed to any amount of Jewish extermination while they a fought a war on multiple fronts. You would think that even Hitler would have realized that using rapidly dwindling resources to kill anyone but the armies that you're at war with is self defeating. Especially after the allied landing at Normandy and Germany's retreat from Russia. Then it was just a war of survival for Germany.

Hitler was not sane and eliminated the generals (Rommel & others) who opposed his line of thought. Operation Valkyrie is the most widely known attempt on his life but if you google "assassinate Hitler" there were many more attempts by Germans, both citizens and officers, from 1939 to 1944.

quote:

Originally posted by l33571:
Hitler was not sane and eliminated the generals (Rommel & others) who opposed his line of thought. ...

The Little Corporal was a drug addict, sexual deviant, and zealot. He took acting, public speaking, and photo exposure lessons. In his heart he knew he was the savior of his (adopted) country and was blessed from on high. He was given absolute power and ruled by edict. He would be the perfect democrap politician today. The US MSM would gush accolade upon accolade upon him.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MG34_Dan,

quote:

Originally posted by l33571:
I finally read through all of this thread and the following from MG34_Dan:

quote:

I read a book many, many, years ago about the Allies knowledge of what the Germans were doing during the Holocaust. It could have been stopped, but the Allies chose not to.

Is absolutely correct. The Allies knew and actually had people in Auschwitz reporting what was happening and ready to attempt an organized a revolt if support could be provided. The story of Capt. Witold Pilecki is beyond amazing.

What could the allies have done to stop it?

Seriously.

We couldn't get the Germans out of Paris until late 1944. How would we get them to stop murdering people in occupied countries.

Anyone who things we could have stopped the camps by bombing them needs to read up on the accuracy and effectiveness of the Allied Bombing campaign against precision targets.

Sure we could have tried to bomb the bigger camps but to think that it would have automatically been effective is folly.

My brother was in the 69th Division and seen some of the camps. I was only 5 but remember a package coming from him with (souvenirs) in it, including a bar of something that looked like a soap. When he came home a year and a half later he told what it was. It was soap from human body fat the SS made in the camp factories along with all kinds of stuff they made and sold to the German people. Some SS got very wealthy. The bar came up missing one day and we found out later that my Mon buried in a place she never told us.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Originally posted by l33571:
I finally read through all of this thread and the following from MG34_Dan:

quote:

I read a book many, many, years ago about the Allies knowledge of what the Germans were doing during the Holocaust. It could have been stopped, but the Allies chose not to.

Is absolutely correct. The Allies knew and actually had people in Auschwitz reporting what was happening and ready to attempt an organized a revolt if support could be provided. The story of Capt. Witold Pilecki is beyond amazing.

What could the allies have done to stop it?

Seriously.

We couldn't get the Germans out of Paris until late 1944. How would we get them to stop murdering people in occupied countries.

At one time in the War Hitler was told the Pope in Rome knew about the killing camps and said it should stop, and his reply was, "Just how many Divisions does the Pope have?'

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Anyone who things we could have stopped the camps by bombing them needs to read up on the accuracy and effectiveness of the Allied Bombing campaign against precision targets.

Sure we could have tried to bomb the bigger camps but to think that it would have automatically been effective is folly.

Given the Nazis drive to keep the death line moving until the bitter end, and then try to hide the evidence, sporadic allied bombing would have been a symbolic gesture. Personally, I wish they had done it, to instill some happiness and hope into those imprisoned, and see some Nazis and collaborators die.

But it would have done little to actually slow it down much, and the Nazi "reprisals" for allied terror bombing, as they liked to call it, could have made things worse for the prisoners.

@WIZZO

At the time, the US and allies were about trying to win the war. Trying to deal with the issue of the camps was not the focus, nor should it have been.

And the information flowing out of the occupied areas of Poland or the held ground in Germany where things were going on would have been given attention on a much lower tier of importance than all the information flowing during that time.

Consider also all the things we hear and see on the Internet of convoys, and train-loads of of "military equipment" along with all the "FEMA Camps" and such, when we that it turns out to be nothing of the sort.

If we have as much BS being floated under "everybody has a camera and access to disseminate information", in a free environment, imagine the "rumors" that were prevalent, and the means of there propagation and often with no "proof" of any sort other than a long line of repeated stories told in whispers.

The war effort was huge, and required looking over and past the micro for the macro, and that was world wide and simply could not be drawn back to such a small issue, when people are dying wholesale all over the world in the affected areas.

We have the detailed record-keeping of the Germans, and the tenacity of history and "remembering" ingrained in the Jewish psyche, that we what happened saw the light of day and was forever burned into the minds of so many.

To contrast with the events in the Pacific, in China and other areas of Japanese occupation, with the exception of the U.S. "evidence gathering and protecting" in the Pacific where we were heavily committed on the ground, much of what the Japanese did, although near the same as the Germans, most have no idea of it.

Much was hidden, and evidence destroyed.

War is ugly, and unless a person or persons are about evil and to do evil, then I certainly cannot find it within myself to be critical of those who put forth the effort and their lives to fight that evil.

And the death and blame is solely the burden of the evil.

And it happened, and it was likely worse than what we know, not less, not overblown, not exaggerated.

It was worse for those who experienced it.

May the innocents rest in peace.

quote:

What could the allies have done to stop it?

I don't think it could have been stopped and was simply commenting on the fact that what was happening at Auschwitz was known based on the reports coming out of the camp itself. The Poles were frustrated (the Polish govt. in exile in Great Britain) that more support was being given to the French resistance based on my understanding of reading about Capt. Pilecki. I said support and just quoted the whole line that included the stopping. Sorry - my mistake there. Of course unrealistic things were thought of such as airborne drops into Poland but that was impossible to achieve as was precision bombing.

There are many things that happened in many countries during WWII and one of things I attempt to do is read about the happenings that are not from the American point of view. Capt. Pilecki's story goes far beyond that of his time spent in Auschwitz (he volunteered to be captured - BTW) and also fought in the Warsaw uprising after going back to Poland (he escaped and helped others to escape Auschwitz) undercover. He was captured and executed by the communist Polish government.

OP - sorry for bringing this slightly off topic. I find the stories of resistance fighters to be of particular interest. Simo Häyhä is another hero that is worth taking to time to read about.

quote:

Originally posted by satch:
My brother was in the 69th Division and seen some of the camps. I was only 5 but remember a package coming from him with (souvenirs) in it, including a bar of something that looked like a soap. When he came home a year and a half later he told what it was. It was soap from human body fat the SS made in the camp factories along with all kinds of stuff they made and sold to the German people. Some SS got very wealthy. The bar came up missing one day and we found out later that my Mon buried in a place she never told us.

God bless your mom and your brother.

quote:

Originally posted by Batty67:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Anyone who things we could have stopped the camps by bombing them needs to read up on the accuracy and effectiveness of the Allied Bombing campaign against precision targets.

Sure we could have tried to bomb the bigger camps but to think that it would have automatically been effective is folly.

Given the Nazis drive to keep the death line moving until the bitter end, and then try to hide the evidence, sporadic allied bombing would have been a symbolic gesture. Personally, I wish they had done it, to instill some happiness and hope into those imprisoned, and see some Nazis and collaborators die.

I can see the logic in that.

quote:

Originally posted by satch:
At one time in the War Hitler was told the Pope in Rome knew about the killing camps and said it should stop, and his reply was, "Just how many Divisions does the Pope have?'

No, not something Hitler said about death camps.

From Wikiquote:

“The Pope! How many divisions has he got?”

Said sarcastically to Pierre Laval in 1935 [by Joseph Stalin], in response to being asked whether he could do anything with Russian Catholics to help Laval win favour with the Pope, to counter the increasing threat of Nazism; as quoted in The Second World War (1948) by Winston Churchill.

What a lot of people seem not to grasp is that antisemitism did not start under Hitler. Hitler merely lit the fuse so to speak. Antisemitism was wide spread in that region for 100's of years. Here is a neat quote from Fredrick II, late 1700's:

"We have too many Jews in the towns. They are needed on the Polish border because in these areas Hebrews alone perform trade. As soon as you get away from the frontier, the Jews become a disadvantage, they form cliques, they deal in contraband and get up to all manner of rascally tricks which are detrimental to Christian burghers and merchants. I have never persecuted anyone from this or any other sect; I think, however, it would be prudent to pay attention, so that their numbers do not increase"

When WW2 ended there was a lot of "Hitler made us do it" and then the attempt of the local Germans, Eastern Europeans to wash there hands of their antisemitism as if it was something that stared in 1932.

Sure, the Germans were just following orders.

Hitler did not invent anti-Semitism.

He used it as a political platform.

He did not murder 7 million Jews by himself. It was a national undertaking. Millions of adult Germans were complicit either by action or inaction as the anti-Jewish rhetoric and laws ramped up.

Even IF they didn't know about the exterminations, they certainly knew of the persecution.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

From Wikiquote:

"Bonjour"- French model on the internet

quote:

Originally posted by Batty67:
I've read Ordinary Men, about the police reserve battalion and their involvement in rounding up and killing Jews. And the cost. They self-medicated with alcohol and often did the killing half or completely drunk. And drank loads after to help deal with they had done. They often got local virulent anti-semites to help with killing, especially the women and children.

I have that book. Pretty sure the author states that there is not a single known case of a German soldier or police officer having been punished for refusing to take part in mass killings of civilians. Maybe he's painting with a broad brush, but the Germans were pretty good about documenting things.

A good friend of ours was involved with the liberation of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. He was in one of the first five tanks which went in. He was also involved in the invasion of Normandy and the Battle of the Bulge, earned five battle stars, Bronze and Silver stars, and a purple heart.

The few times he spoke of being in one of the first US tanks at Buchenwald, he always got choked up. He was native-born American but had a German last name. He was interviewed by our local PBD affiliate before he died.

It's one thing to read about things, another to hear about them from someone who was there.

I am beyond sorry for those who suffered in the camps. I cannot comprehend the evils of WWII. There are no words, only prayers.