SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge 6 customers draw guns on men trying to steal tools from Washington store
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Wait, what? |
The issue in this incident is the justification of deadly force. Any one of the shooters would be justified in exercising it when the guy in front of the car was in danger. Shooting the tires would stray away from the concept. “Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown | |||
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Fighting the good fight |
In addition, there had been no violent felony committed by the bad guys when the bystanders initially confronted them with their guns drawn. They weren't legally justified in drawing their guns and confronting the bad guys at the beginning, when all they were suspected of doing was shoplifting some power tools. Merely witnessing someone shoplifting alone doesn't create a situation where you or someone else is in imminent danger of serious physical injury or death, and there's no indication that there had been any violence, threats, or weapons on the part of the bad guys at that point. Therefore the bystanders had no basis for using or threatening deadly force at that point. | |||
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semi-reformed sailor |
Adding to Rogue’s post... they also precipitated the deadly force issue by stepping in front of the car....bad call fellas. "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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| Staring back from the abyss  |
I'm reminded of one of the final scenes in Roadhouse: Police Chief: All right. Who's gonna tell me what the hell happened here? Emmet: I didn't see nothing. You see anything, Pete? Pete Stroudenmire: No, I didn't see anything. You see anything, Red? Red West: I didn't see nothing — not a thing! You see anything, Tinker? Tinker: A polar bear fell on me. ________________________________________________________ "Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil." Doug Patton. | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
Oh my. There is a special kind of stupid going on in this thread. That Special Forces EDC operator mentality that is completely out of touch with reality. If the article is true (and most of the time the media doesn't get it right so with a grain of salt)........Anyone that does stuff like this is a fool. I know of a guy that did the same thing. And he wound up shooting the driver over a theft from a storage unit. The shooter is presently doing 8 years and rightfully so. He took a non-deadly force situation, pulled his gun, PLACED HIS BODY IN FRONT OF THE VEHICLE, and then shot the driver. That is called murder, boys. When you intentionally put yourself in front of a vehicle, force a shoot situation, and then kill a man. That is an actual case. Anyone who can't see this, probably never will. You can't force shooting situations, and then claim to be the victim. Why do LE SWAT teams not stand in front of vehicles on vehicle take downs (or even forward of the front tires)? Because, you'll get run over. It seems that anyone with a brain could see this coming. Apparently not. You can't put yourself in jeopardy, and then shoot someone because you are in jeopardy. Shooting out tires? Woo boy. There is a reason why any cop with half a brain won't shoot at tires. Too much liability for one on where that round will go, and secondly anyone with half a brain should read this and realize, shooting out tires doesn't stop the car. Looking back over my 23 going on 24 year career, there are a lot of shootings I could have been in because I would have been technically justified, that I used good judgement and didn't shoot them. I certainly do not put myself in situations to force having to shoot someone to feel like I'm "doing something", evil triumphs and whatnot. Six people doing this is dumb. And they are lucky no one got hurt. Way too much liability in forcing a situation to where you have to discharge a firearm for no good reason. This goes for dumbass cops too. Edited- I corrected the jail sentence in the case I referenced. I was way off.  This message has been edited. Last edited by: jljones, | |||
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| Ammoholic |
It seems a little hard for some folks to wrap their heads around. I try to look at it backwards. “When do you shoot?” When you have to. “When do do you draw?” When you have to shoot. “What is the goal?” To avoid situations where you may have to shoot. It brings to mind the saw about the superior pilot: “The Superior pilot uses his Superior judgement to avoid situations that would require him to use his Superior skill.” Channeling vape boy, it would emotionally feel good to “do something,” but a moments reflection on the laws in most states leads one to the realization that in a situation such as seems to be described in the article the legal thing to do is to be a good witness. If (and only if) there is no further fallout, then it is a feel good story. It sure could have gone very badly though. | |||
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| Member |
Well said. | |||
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| Wait, what? |
Aren’t you guys getting it? They stole power tools. POWER TOOLS! “Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown | |||
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Truth Seeker |
Absolutely crazy for them to have done that. I am sure the store had security; notify them along with the police, be a good witness, and that is it. I won’t forget once I was at my local HEB, grocery store, and while I was in the store I saw a guy pushing a cart absolutely loaded with brisket and other meats. He was pushing it down the isle on the side of the store where there is an exit and not cashiers. I followed him and told the first employee I saw, “Notify management that man is going to walk out with that meat.” Which he did and management did not get there in time. I followed at a distance like any regular customer and then snapped pictures of him, his vehicle, and license plate. He took off with the meat and I turned in the pictures to the store; hell they gave me a $100 gift card as this guys had been killing all the HEBs in Austin and they could never get a license plate or good picture of him. Fast forward about a year and I see a news story about the guy being arrested and all the meat he stole. The pictures of his vehicle posted were mine. I then got called to testify at his trial and he ultimately plead and is currently in prison. I was armed, the meat he stole was probably worth more than $400 in tools. Did I pull my gun and stand behind his vehicle to hope that would prevent him from backing up? Oh hell no! NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Member |
I am honestly torn on this particular situation. Normally I would agree with what you have said; your post is highly rational and the voice of experience. But, if I am reading this article correctly, the town they live in has been plagued with high crime and, apparently, an ineffective justice system. This "over the top" act of vigilante justice seems to be making a larger statement aimed at criminal behavior in general. While appearing foolhardy at the micro level, the statement it sends to would-be predators at the macro-level may be the best decision these citizens could make given their situation. There are many parts of the country where we are close to anarchy. Obama undermined law enforcement and psychologically handcuffed them from doing their jobs during his administration; now people routinely show open disrespect for law enforcement. And I think you know how some Leftist judges can destroy police resolve with their treatment of criminals. The line between a civilized society and law of the jungle is probably as thin as it has been since the old days of the West. Right or wrong, it sounds like what the residents of Maryville are saying is, essentially, in the words of that great philosopher-poet, Dee Snider, "We're not gonna take it." . | |||
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| Member |
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| When you fall, I will be there to catch you -With love, the floor |
[QUOTE] Right or wrong, it sounds like what the residents of Maryville are saying is, essentially, in the words of that great philosopher-poet, Dee Snider, "We're not gonna take it." /QUOTE] Best case senario is upu get sued civically. Worst case you lose everything defending yourself in a unwinnable criminal case. On the chance you win...you are out tens of thousands. Think the store will help?? They will be testifying for the prosecution. | |||
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| Member |
What a difference from Boston, our newly elected DA Rachel Rollins, will not prosecute retail thefts, but all six would've been charged with ABDW firearm and the two who fired would be charged with discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling. | |||
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| Member |
Seriously? . | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
Not any old power tools, but nail GUNS! | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
Sooo, here's a few things we don't know....Was the suspect's Honda Civic parked 'nose in' or 'backed in' to the parking space? Heck, was it even parked in a space in the lot or was it a running 'get away vehicle' waiting outside, with or without a driver? When the suspect's car 'pulled forward' causing one of the 'armed customers' to land on the hood, were they attempting to flee, or attempting to 'run down/over' the armed customer confronting them? Was the 'armed customer' between the car and the storefront, or blocking the escape? If the latter, REALLY Bad Judgement....That might get you killed! While assumptions can be made (and have been throughout this thread), there are many pertinent facts NOT in evidence! There's a lot we don't know here....Just Sayin'!  ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Make America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
Please understand what I am saying. The stupidity isn't folks wanting to do something, it is drawing guns, shooting at tires, intentionally and wantonly placing themselves in front of a vehicle, and then trying to claim victim status and a legal justification for doing so. Anyone that claims that they have intentionally put themselves in situations like this is a fool. Plain and simple. I suppose it would have been better to say that one person was being a special kind of stupid. If the good folks of Marysville wants to "do something", they need to vote smarter and become politically active in selecting, and voting in "hanging judges" and prosecutors that aren't there for the status quo. Events like this will continue until crime is no longer profitable. Right now, nationwide, you can commit just about any crime you wish, and serve pennies on the dollar sentences. Federal and State governments keep pushing "reform" of the criminal justice system, but what "reform" actually always is a pro-criminal, anti-law and order bill that cuts the amount that the government has to pay for housing and feeding criminals. The criminal element gets huge sweeping law changes and sentencing "reforms", and the people that are their victims get nothing but higher crime. That is the democrat way. If these six guys had done anything other than pull their guns and start breaking shots over a petty larceny, I would not have said a word. If these six people had caught the pair, and stomped their asses into a pulp, not one peep by me. But, when you start cranking off rounds in a public venue, in a situation that YOU created, that isn't going to cut it. I don't think "doing something" is stupid. I don't think people standing up, is stupid. I think that forcing a potential deadly force situation, and those who defend it, is. Stop and think about this. In the commission of a crime or not, if you have a dude stand in front of your car and pull a gun on you, what are you going to do? | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
None of that matters in a legal sense. The only thing that matters is did the patron place themselves in front or behind the vehicle? If that answer is yes (according to the article) then they have forced the situation they are in by their actions. The orientation of the car, the phase of the moon, boxers or tighty whites on the suspect, and lunch preference doesn't amount to a hill of beans on whether it was a good shoot or not. It's sort of like going up to the biggest guy in the room, hitting him in the nose, getting your behind stomped, and then trying to claim you are the innocent victim. If someone appears in front or behind your car with a weapon, yes you are going to try to run them down intentionally. Hell, I would. And any first year law student is going to point that out to a jury and any deadly force claims will evaporate into the thin air it was created from. I've seen this play out a couple of times in court. | |||
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| Member |
I understand completely and I am not really disagreeing with you. I am just trying to offer a 30,000 foot view on this incident. And I agree that the legal path/election process is the best route. On the other hand, it can sometimes it can take an extreme action to bring the problem, and path to resolution, into focus. I am not advocating for what these 6 people did, but I can see that it may be a positive incident in the bigger picture. We truly do have communities and cities bordering on anarchy. . . | |||
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Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
What you are missing Jerry is that sometimes you just have to do the right thing. Good men step up regardless of the law or consequences or common sense or rational thought or triple digit IQ. Sometimes you gotsta take a stand and defend civilization. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand???  | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge 6 customers draw guns on men trying to steal tools from Washington store
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