quote:

Originally posted by gjgalligan:
charging a monthly fee for some options

I hate to be one of those curmudgeonly old farts that says, "well, I'll never...!"

But... that's just one more reason I would avoid buying a future BMW, I think. If I buy the car and the goodies, I want to own and use the car and all the goodies. Subscription for satellite radio? Probably. Subscription to use the car's mechanical features? Something just seems wrong about that.

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Originally posted by HRK:

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Originally posted by Georgeair:
Particularly with BMW, Mercedes, and LORD with Porsche I believe the options are operating at a much larger profit margin than the base as a percentage. In the case of Porsche where you can easily option-up a car by 25-50% beyond based without breaking a sweat the margin in total is actually greater. Supposedly.

No shidtola, ordering the Porsche was a full day of selecting or de-selecting items.

Sooo herrr schmidt vould you like aluminum or steel seet frames ya?, ok Aluminum, now carbon fiber seat buttons, aluminum or plastic ya?, ok Carbon, now carpet fibers.........

I remember looking at the build sheet of one at the mall......the options list was a page long with all kinds of stupid add on's......leather wrapped a/c knobs (3) $350, leather wrapped parking brake handle $500, and on and on.....ridiculous.....

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Originally posted by HRK:

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Originally posted by jimmy123x:

It is more efficient to build cars one way.

It is interesting that you would say that. Do you have much experience in automobile manufacturing?

Shoot VeeTee, don't cha Know, he built himself a 655 HP mustang out of a 302 with just a pair of pliers and a blowtorch.... [/QUOTE]

Not hardly, I raced Fun Ford Weekend Street Renegade class with the car. It ran 10.80's at 128 mph in the 1/4 at 3500lbs with all of the car intact (a/c, power steering, interior, 5 speed trans etc.) in the late 1990's. Had a 302 0.20" over, JE 8.3:1 pistons, manley rods, girdle, TFS twisted wedge aluminum heads with a stage 2 porting by heads by rick, cobra intake stage 2 extrude honed, crane blower cam, Vortech S-trim supercharger with 16lbs of boost, 38 # injectors, Vortech FMU, stock Ford A9L computer (this was before anyone really burned custom computer chips and was outlawed in the class I ran anyways) and when 10.80's on 26"x10" slicks was REALLY fast.

It costs money anytime you change an assembly line to produce a different color, different trim level, etc. All of the parts and pieces have to be changed in the supply line that feeds the assembly line. Plus they all have to be ordered, stocked, organized, etc. Screw up's are easier to do with assembly line changes and cost big money. It's the very reason most manufacturers have gone to packages of options, versus a list of 40+ different options. I grew up in/around the automotive business, my brother is still in it.

Car guys are smart and will figure out how to bypass any ludicrous controls.

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Originally posted by 46and2:
The SaaS and Subscription model trend is not good for the consumer.

I don't think it is fair to make such a blanket statement. Subscription models are like anything else, they need to be evaluated in the context of your goals and objectives.

I don't think this is really much different than leasing a vehicle.

Think about it this way. You only want or can only afford a base vehicle. So you buy the base vehicle. But the base vehicles are, well, basic, and not that popular.

So now it comes time to sell that vehicle. It doesn't matter that you bought the base vehicle because all the vehicles are the same. The next owner can choose what options to turn on and what options not to turn on. So this helps your resale value.

The question I think this raises is does it make financial sense to have legal title to a depreciable asset?

Note we are talking a depreciable asset versus an investment. A house is an investment. Properly maintained a house will increase in value over time. The same cannot be said for the vast majority of vehicles.

I would assume, although I'm not certain, that a buyer would have an option to turn features permanently on if they had the desire to do so. And the cost of that option could then be rolled into the purchase price of the vehicle and financed in the traditional method.

Maybe I live in Miami, FL and I have no use for heated seats so I don't pay to have that option turned on. But the feature is built into the car so I, or a dealer, can sell the car anywhere in the U.S. This increases my resale value because the dealer knows they have a larger potential market.

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Originally posted by 46and2:
The SaaS and Subscription model trend is not good for the consumer.

Correct. It's shit. That's where the entire industry is going, subscription based services. At least that is what they want to do. Instead of owners make us all renters. Fuck that. I've got one more vehicle to buy for my fleet and I'm spreading the mileage around on all my vehicles so they will last 20 years.

We just need to have an area of the country to ourselves. Freedom, 2A, and no millennials allowed.

The computer software industry got away with it, so now the automotives feel they can, too.

I don't buy software subscriptions. I won't be buying automobile optional features subscriptions, either.

But I'm crazy that way. I don't like being bent over.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:

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Originally posted by HRK:

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Originally posted by V-Tail:

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Originally posted by jimmy123x:

It is more efficient to build cars one way.

It is interesting that you would say that. Do you have much experience in automobile manufacturing?

Shoot VeeTee, don't cha Know, he built himself a 655 HP mustang out of a 302 with just a pair of pliers and a blowtorch....

My background includes years of software development for manufacturing process control (and teaching same), including assignment as team lead for a project at the largest automobile factory in Spain, implementing a system to build cars to order per customer selection of options.

Do you mean SEAT, which produces a whopping 450,000 cars per YEAR? Compared to Ford that does 350 million cars per year?

This system replaced the outmoded “we build cars one way” system.

If the Spanish factory only had enough sense to contact Jimmy instead of embarking on this project, they could have saved the expense of thirty man-years of American engineers on the team, and many times that of Spanish engineers. Just think, hundreds of man-years, and a lot of money wasted on computers and process control hardware, because they didn't think ask Jimmy before plunging willy-nilly into an unnecessary project.

Exactly how many 10's of millions of $$$, did those 30 man years of American and Spanish engineers cost exactly? Considering the big 3 and many Foreign MUCH larger manufacturers (bmw, Mercedes, Toyota, Lexus etc.) have all figured out it's much more efficient to just have a few packages of options, rather than each option as an additional line item?

I find it absolutely amazing you can write an entire diatribe over one sentence I wrote "It's more efficient to build cars one way" PERHAPS you should pick up the phone and tell the CEO of BMW this, because he didn't seem to get your message when they made this decision (without you)!

If you're such a busy computer programmer, I'd suggest you get back to it.

"BMW itself will take an initial hit on the (not inconsiderable) cost of some of the hardware involved, but there are procedural advantages to giving every car the hardware to enable things like heated seats, Driver Recorder dashcams, the IconicSound Sport electric car engine noise designed by Hans Zimmer, and a range of other systems. If every seat has a heater built in, and every windscreen has a LiDAR system for adaptive cruise, there's that many fewer parts to design, manufacture and keep track of."

https://newatlas.com/automotiv...ubscription-options/

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jimmy123x,

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Originally posted by Prefontaine:
Correct. It's shit. That's where the entire industry is going, subscription based services.

My last relationship felt like it was subscription-based. I tore up the user agreement and moved on.

For 18+ months I've ben looking at vehicle websites. Building my next car, looking ahead a year or so. And the best companies are the ones which have the fewest packages and options.

A fool and his money...

So it's cheaper to build the car with all the options? Why not pass the savings on to the Buyer?

If you can build it for less- Charge Less.

Would an owner be able to turn it 'on' and pay the fee in cold parts of the year, and 'off' during warmer months?

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Originally posted by comet24:
I see a new business in hacking these systems.

People have learned how to hack computers to totally remap everything to change performance.

People have been changing things in their BMW ECU for ages. I had done a lot of weird little programming, everything from interior light timing, audio controls, fuel air maps. Mycarly.com is one of many interfaces to accomplish this with. “Cracking” the ECU on a new car is the hard part. Once that is done, it is a lot easier.
The question with this, is which computer will it be stored in, will it be scattered amongst multiple computers, etc. wouldn’t be hard to make it difficult to the point if cost prohibitive to unlock the options.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

It is more efficient to build cars one way.

It is interesting that you would say that. Do you have much experience in automobile manufacturing?

Come on, it looks like you are just nit-picking. Henry Ford figured out a century ago that it's cheaper to make a LOT of one model than numerous variants. It is intuitive that standardizing on a very few variants is a lot more efficient than having a myriad of different options packages to build.

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Originally posted by braillediver:
So it's cheaper to build the car with all the options? Why not pass the savings on to the Buyer?

If you can build it for less- Charge Less.

Corporate greed, of course. Wring every last penny out of the consumer. BMWs are 'luxury' brands, anyway. People often buy them so everybody can see how much money they have. If I wanted an economy vehicle, I'd buy a Ford. If I wanted to make sure the neighbors knew I made more money than them, I'd get a SnobMobile (BMW, Lexus, Caddy, etc).



Personally, they can shove this 'pay to play' nonsense. If I buy a car, I'll be darned if I'm going to SUBSCRIBE to use its features. Of course, the younger generations are already used to this concept (Xbox/PlayStation Network, Streaming music, Netflix, etc). Not me.

quote:

I don't buy software subscriptions. I won't be buying automobile optional features subscriptions, either.
But I'm crazy that way. I don't like being bent over.

Yeah... if a car has a seat heater, I'll use it on a cold day but for only about 10 minutes anyway. I'm sure as hell not buying a subscription. Same with any other 'feature'.

This just seems like a good way to piss off their existing customers. Not a good business model.

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Originally posted by chellim1:
This just seems like a good way to piss off their existing customers. Not a good business model.

You would think, but this thread is identical in every respect to what people were saying about software subscriptions when they first came out, and we know how that went.

I could cite any number of other examples that aren't quite analogous, but are close. People bitch and moan, but, in the end they pay for it anyway.

Guarantee you: BMW's market analysis gnomes have examined this carefully and concluded that, not only will they get away with it, but it will lead to increased profitability.

Disagree. Subscription services for your car start and end with the electronics. Radio, nav, and rescue services. Renting seat warmers and sunroofs might work for guys who will drop Porsche money but not the rest of us. To argue otherwise puts you in the camp that eventually no one will own a car. You just lease or rent one by the hour as you need it. This model has some proponents. It also flies in the face of Americans love of freedom. Owning parts of a car won’t sell with the non wealthy. And even they might like to own a car outright.

No one has answered, can Tesla really shut your car off if you don’t use dealer service? Is that part of the sales contract?

Anyone dumb enough to buy a car that requires them to pay a subscription fee, to use already installed vehicle options, deserves to get screwed.

Cheaper to build all cars loaded with no assurance the options will be "paid" for - ha what a crock.

Ever had a stripped down car that had blanks where the buttons for luxury features were? You wished that you had those buttons there but you couldn’t afford the luxury package. Well, now you have all of the buttons, awesome! But...you can’t afford to turn them on.

I can see paying to enable hardware installed on a vehicle. I can't see paying a subscription fee to keep the hardware enabled when it's not costing the manufacturer. This excludes any "cost" that allows them to cut off said feature; that's like "protection" money.