One of the topics that came up to help accelerate repayment or ROI are Solar Energy Credits or SRECS, unfortunately Florida doesn't have a SRECS program,

SRECS are credits you sell on the market separate from the electricity, I"m guessing it's much like a market for pollution where companies that pollute could buy Smog Credits on the open market to offset for the pollution they create vs fixing the problem with new tech.

power companies can buy srecs to offset against requirements for solar energy production they haven't installed. Which of course are passed on to consumers in the form of higher rates in those states.

https://www.srectrade.com/srec_markets/

FL doesn't participate in those types of programs so it's not beneficial...

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Originally posted by sjtill:

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Last year before solar we had a $700 electric bill in July

$700 bill in July with no - rare A/C?

That is INSANE.

Well that July was unusually hot and we were using AC a lot more than usual. Mind you, the rate with that electric usage was 52 cents a kWh.

Wow. It’s only 8 cents per kWh here.

I'll admit - I'd never paid attention. 9 cents here.

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Originally posted by PowerSurge:

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Originally posted by sjtill:

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Last year before solar we had a $700 electric bill in July

$700 bill in July with no - rare A/C?

That is INSANE.

Well that July was unusually hot and we were using AC a lot more than usual. Mind you, the rate with that electric usage was 52 cents a kWh.

Wow. It’s only 8 cents per kWh here.

The AC comes on mid June and with only very rare breaks, stays on continuously through mid-Sept.

Its so hot the upstairs AC unit can’t keep it cool enough with the sunlight on the roof (stops about 78-80F), so we also run window units in those bedrooms. Nearly continuously as well.

Even then, $450 tops to keep an old 3500sqft house that leaks badly 74-75 daytime and 71 nighttime.

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Originally posted by Fed161:
I was surprised to learn (after talking to several neighbors who have it) that if you have solar panels, you must still be connected to the grid. If there is a power failure, you don't have power either. The panels do nothing for you during a power failure.

Huh? If you have a grid tie system you have to be connected to the grid. Some cities, counties, or states may require you to be connected to the grid under some circumstances. It has been 14 years since we put our system in, so I’m sure things have changed some, but I’ll bet the incentives are still mostly for grid tie systems rather than off-grid systems. There are plenty of off-grid systems out there though. Mrs. slosig, the kids, and I have lived in a house powered by one for the last fourteen years.

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Originally posted by LS1 GTO:
If I understood the explanation correctly, your batteries will be drained feeding back into the grid. They'll act like a capacitor for the power company.

I guess it depends on how your system is configured. With our system (and the system I looked at to setup as a UPS for the entry gate), the “brains” direct power as follows: First to the output load, pulling down batteries if needed, but only so far. Next to charging batteries. Finally, if the load is satisfied and the batteries are full then it will “sell” power to a grid connection. I’m sure it is possible to configure systems differently though.

The details seem to be VERY important here. My father was just telling me yesterday a coworker was lamenting having it done as his saving were minimal and not worth the effort for him.

At 50¢ a KWh it's a no brainier, at the national average of a dime per KWh, it's a tough call, but will err on the side of this shit is too new to trust claims, not going to gamble on stuff lasting life expectancy, zero repairs, plus likelihood of rapid improvements in next decade.

Wait a few more years and you'll likely be happier with end results. An counter argument can be made that today's tax credits outweigh tomorrow's efficiency gains. I still rather have a product later in life cycle (cheaper, more reliable) than count on emerging market/prouct(+ tax credit). Think - Wait a few years for 4k TV and never buy first year of new car.

its $.13 here, can't imagine having to pay $.50 a Kw the taxes in those areas on power must be insane

Don't forget CA claims tons of “renewable” energy even when hooked up to the grid, so that and taxes etc likely inflate the costs. But hey they're ‘carbon neutral’, oh yay!!!

Thats the kind of shit we have to look forward to as the disease of that state spreads.

I explored putting in a system when I moved here to Tucson

out of pocket cost was $32,000 and no real incentive to do it

roof-mounted systems have structural issues with maintenance and roof repairs that need to be accounted in the cost

given the current cost, I figured it had so small a payback that it wasn't worth the stranded cost when my peak bill is under $200 a month for June/July/August and around $100 the rest of the year

I have talked to a couple of people who have done this. They swear by it, but I think they spent a whole lot of money and are justifying the expense. The two in question have had panels installed on their roofs. They claim they pay little on electric bills or nothing at all. That's all well and good, but I continued to dig deeper they are paying 200 dollars a month for 12 years to pay off the installation and equipment. That's the deal going on around here. I think its more expensive at least until you get the panels payed off. What is interesting about this is there is no battery involved. What you don't use goes into the grid somehow.

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Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Don't forget CA claims tons of “renewable” energy even when hooked up to the grid, so that and taxes etc likely inflate the costs. But hey they're ‘carbon neutral’, oh yay!!!

Thats the kind of shit we have to look forward to as the disease of that state spreads.

Not to mention Cali buys a lot of power from other states. The TVA sells a good percentage of the power they make to Cali.

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Originally posted by goose5:
I think its more expensive at least until you get the panels payed off.

I think at best you break even until they are paid off, but typically pay a bit more.

Which I would be ok with IF the payoff period was reasonable, like 4-7 years. But some of these 12-18 year payoffs typically don't take into account maintenance to the panels / system. You know damn well a system with batteries is going to need some new batteries several times over 15+ years, not to mention wiring and solar panels needing replacement for wear and tear, being out in the weather, etc.

I'd love to do it, I have land and would do a ground based system. But I had desire to lose money on the deal.

Considering how long threads stick around before being pruned, I guess mine just got too long in the tooth and went to the Halls of Mandos.

There were, and are, a lot of misconceptions and bad information about solar power.

First things first, you need to know what the laws are in your state. Second, you have to know the conditions of your home. Third, your actual power usage. Fourth, the math of the install has to be correct. Fifth, read the contract if there is one.

You can find people who installed solar on their home, for whom it's not working. What they won't share with you is all the details, to know whether it was sized and installed correctly, and more. It is possible they were in essence swindled.

Installing solar just because you want to save the earth, is silly. It has to have the correct conditions to be useful, and actually make sense financially. Doing your homework and finding a reputable installer are absolutely essential.

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Originally posted by Fed161:
I was surprised to learn (after talking to several neighbors who have it) that if you have solar panels, you must still be connected to the grid. If there is a power failure, you don't have power either. The panels do nothing for you during a power failure.

This is true in many states, grid tie in is mandated and well, that's how you sell power back if allowed. "rapid shutoff" will kill the system, but there are options for keeping your power up, for added cost.

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Originally posted by kramden:
Solar is decades away from being a good idea. ESPECIALLY if you live somewhere that actually has winter.

I live in MA, and have had solar for years, saving a great big pile of money. Not only that but over years of working on homes I've participated in numerous successful solar projects. It works just fine where there is winter.

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Originally posted by Skins2881:

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Originally posted by sigmonkey:
HRK.

Do your calculations include maintenance costs, and time for upkeep, added costs to insurance, and those panels that are installed on roof structures that may need to be removed/reinstalled for any roof repairs?

And there are many other costs, some tangible, others intangible to everything.

The green footprint may offset your carbon footprint offset.

[Seinfeld voice]
Oh, wait a minute. Wait... a... minute...!!!
[/Seinfeld voice]

You forgot they degrade over time and eventually need to be replaced.

Make sure you set aside and extra couple hundred per month for savings for when you need to replace the system in 20 years (assuming they last as long as they are supposed to.

Another expense is bring your existing electrical service up to code which can in some cases mean complete replacement or upgrade. About 3/4 I looked at for SolarCity needed repairs and a third needed to be replaced.

Funny I just thought about it we no longer do work for SolarCity, I wonder if they went out of business? Interesting model, they pay upfront costs and rent the panels back to you.

I recommend anyone who is considering solar replace their roof. Should you need to do something to a roof you have solar on, they'll be happy to come take it off and put it back, for a price.

Solar panels, like everything, degrade over time. However, after 20 years you can simply evaluate your needs and what they are currently producing. I've been to longtime clients homes who have now ancient panels still doing the job. The company you buy the panels from, who installs them.. these are important variables.

As far as maintenance is concerned, there is little or no maintenance. If you have a solar lease, you may not even be responsible for it if there is any.

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Originally posted by hambony:
If you do a system with a power wall (batteries) you will have power if the system goes down,it is just a bigger investment and you have to have the right company (or know how) on how to do it.

Batteries like the powerwall will indeed get you through short outages. I would like to add batteries to my system at some point, but here is the key point about the batteries right now:

They are a much higher cost to the system than their expected lifespan. As mentioned before, solar panels degrade over time, but even after decades can still be viable. The Powerwall has a lifespan of charge/discharge before it must be replaced, and the expected replacement doesn't wash with the expense. Yet.

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Originally posted by LS1 GTO:
If I understood the explanation correctly, your batteries will be drained feeding back into the grid. They'll act like a capacitor for the power company.

No, there is some sophisticated electronics at work here, but you won't find your batteries draining to feed the grid. Net metering also will not feed the grid before the power needs of your home.

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Originally posted by ShouldBFishin:
I did some basic research on it here a couple years ago and the rough numbers I came up with was pay for itself in 16-20 years at the time (including the incentives I could find). Since I'm not planning on staying here that long I opted not to go forward.


Now, if we ever build in the country I'd take another look at solar with battery backup as well as geothermal for heating and cooling if we can swing it.

So far, over many projects, they all have beaten the projected payoff, often by half the time. Each solar install depends on a host of conditions, about the only surety is that energy costs will rise, but your payoff estimate includes a flat cost. I've done several projects with Geothermal, it is very cool and can work, but the cost/benefit isn't as good as solar. Geothermal equipment needs more maintenance, for starters.

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Originally posted by Rick Lee:
False economy .... for now. If it can't work in Phoenix without subsidies, it can't work anywhere else.

When they did my evaluation, they took my total electric bill for the previous year and estimated what it'd be after having solar panels. We pay $85/month for the solar panel lease. Total electric bill the year before solar was $1300. We still have a small electric bill in the summer months, so we just about break even. Well, they did give us a free 55" tv as a rebate, so there's that.

The solar company's value proposition was that we'd get locked into current rates with the local power utility for 20 years. And, of course, the local power utility then started sending out letters stating that they "were fighting for us," but that so many customers had gone solar, that those folks weren't paying their fair share to maintain the grid and so they might have to raise fees (not rates) by huge percentages. Who didn't see that one coming? Anyway, I don't regret the move, but it hasn't made any difference in our finances. The $7k we spent on a new A/C made a much bigger difference than going solar did.

I'd say that there are a few areas of the country with a falsely buoyed economy right now, and that is why the details are so important. Solar isn't just popular in states with punishing electrical rates, it can work in a variety of places.

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Originally posted by Skins2881:
At 50¢ a KWh it's a no brainier, at the national average of a dime per KWh, it's a tough call, but will err on the side of this shit is too new to trust claims, not going to gamble on stuff lasting life expectancy, zero repairs, plus likelihood of rapid improvements in next decade.

Wait a few more years and you'll likely be happier with end results. An counter argument can be made that today's tax credits outweigh tomorrow's efficiency gains. I still rather have a product later in life cycle (cheaper, more reliable) than count on emerging market/prouct(+ tax credit). Think - Wait a few years for 4k TV and never buy first year of new car.

With all due respect, waiting for a new technology is silly, when the solar of today is a mature one that has been around since the 70's as far as use in residential. Install a system today, reap the benefits, then install new panels when your current ones fall below your production needs. We all know that technology improves rapidly, but "wait a few years" is goofy.

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Originally posted by nhtagmember:
roof-mounted systems have structural issues with maintenance and roof repairs that need to be accounted in the cost

Roof mounted systems don't simply have "structural issues." They are a load on the roof, and the roof can either support it or not. This is case by case, and a lot of modern homes are more than adequately framed. Adding a solar array does not in itself create structural problems. If someone does it without evaluating the structure, they have created the problem.

As far as maintenance and roof repairs, if your put a new roof on with the solar, you're probably set, but no one has a crystal ball. I would not put solar up on a roof near the end of its lifespan, but an array actually protects the roof underneath from the thing that damages it the most, the sun.

There are so many variables with a solar installation, that getting it right means being informed. Doing it just for the environment doesn't make sense, but hey it's your money.

If you are considering solar, the first thing you need to consider is:

How long you'll be in the home. You need to be there long enough to enjoy the systems benefits. Again, most projects I've worked on have payed off faster than projected, but the expense should be something you enjoy. Would you put in a brand new kitchen before you sell the home? No, that is a dumb idea, tell your realtor to fuck off.

The second thing to consider is:

Are your current power bills higher than you'd like them to be? If they are a tolerable expense, then you're doing it just for fun, or the environment, and with a low $/kw, the payoff is going to take a while, so what are you doing? You can do it just because you want to, but really?

Know your home.

Is your roof facing the right direction? Are trees close? Is the home modern construction? Is the electrical modern? What is the condition of the roof?
My home was built in 1919, and in the process of ripping out Knob&Tube, and putting on a new roof, these things were addressed as a matter of course. The roof itself was 2x6 and needed reinforcing for snow by todays standards anyway. These are expenses that may or may not be part of a solar install.

Know your state laws.

Your state will have its own rules governing solar, grid tie in, net metering, srecs, building code, etc. Insurance has been mentioned, do you carry it, or does your lease provider? You need to be aware of all of this, it's part of the math.

Know your installer.

Reputation is one thing, but take note of the site survey. If they don't crawl in the attic, use geopositioning equipment to plot the sun, and look at the panel, find someone else. If the crew doesn't wear fall protection, your roof better be flatter than a 10 year old girl.

Read your contract.

If you're buying a system, much of what you need will be part of how the state handles power. The contract is more critical for a solar lease. For instance, I would recommend you only do a solar lease if the produced power belongs to you, in writing. There are a variety of ways they'll frame it to you, but the solar leasing business model is based on either srecs, power exchange, or both.

You don't just slap panels on a house and watch the meter slow down. Because of all the variables there is a lot to know, but you can indeed make it work for you. It's 2019, solar is not some immature technology or unknown boondoggle. Also, the idea that people won't buy your home because of solar panels went out decades ago. Your new buyer probably will enjoy charging their electric car.

You need to be informed, and due to the booming solar industry, the biggest pitfall is choosing a shit company. They don't have the experience, they won't be around to warranty the system they didn't have the expertise to design and install correctly. Frankly, Tesla is the top of my "hard no" list. That company is a financial vehicle, not a solar company. Solar City was mentioned.... yeah fuck them.

So yeah. Solar. Complex topic.

The key point for anyone reading: Start with how long you intend to be in the home, then start checking boxes.

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Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

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Originally posted by goose5:
I think its more expensive at least until you get the panels payed off.

I think at best you break even until they are paid off, but typically pay a bit more.

Which I would be ok with IF the payoff period was reasonable, like 4-7 years. But some of these 12-18 year payoffs typically don't take into account maintenance to the panels / system. You know damn well a system with batteries is going to need some new batteries several times over 15+ years, not to mention wiring and solar panels needing replacement for wear and tear, being out in the weather, etc.

I'd love to do it, I have land and would do a ground based system. But I had desire to lose money on the deal.

Been living offgrid for 13+ years. Power our home with wind/solar. Still using the same set of batteries. A quality battery bank that is properly charged it's reasonable to get 20yrs of life. No maintenance on the solar panels. Installed everything myself, have an electrical/mechanical background.

We're in a different situation then everyone on this thread, 3 miles from utility power. Also at our altitude no need for air conditioning. Reaches 80 degrees a few times during the summer during the day, that's HOT for us! Our choice to live offgrid is all about independence.

Arc, thank you. We’ve been kicking around the idea of a few panels and this info is invaluable. How do you feel about putting the panels in the yard? I’m not sure our roof has enough real estate and the house is so old it’s likely require a lot of improvements anyway.

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Originally posted by Leemur:
Arc, thank you. We’ve been kicking around the idea of a few panels and this info is invaluable. How do you feel about putting the panels in the yard? I’m not sure our roof has enough real estate and the house is so old it’s likely require a lot of improvements anyway.

If you've got the property, and don't mind losing the space, then it's easier in a number of ways. They usually go on roofs because where else, but also to get above/away from shade.

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Originally posted by offgrid:
Been living offgrid for 13+ years. Power our home with wind/solar. Still using the same set of batteries. A quality battery bank that is properly charged it's reasonable to get 20yrs of life.

I'd just like to note that my cost/charge/discharge comment is related to the Powerwall. Other battery installations have proven records.

Arc, thank you for an excellent discussion on solar energy. I’m preparing to install a system on my home. Between the Tax credit and the energy savings I believe we will see a good benefit. Do you have any manufacturers that you try to avoid? I’m looking at using a company named Solar Holler for my system. They recommend LG and Panasonic as they’re well established companies and will be around for warranty etc if needed. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge and experience.

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Originally posted by arcwelder76:

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Originally posted by Leemur:
Arc, thank you. We’ve been kicking around the idea of a few panels and this info is invaluable. How do you feel about putting the panels in the yard? I’m not sure our roof has enough real estate and the house is so old it’s likely require a lot of improvements anyway.

If you've got the property, and don't mind losing the space, then it's easier in a number of ways. They usually go on roofs because where else, but also to get above/away from shade.

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Originally posted by offgrid:
Been living offgrid for 13+ years. Power our home with wind/solar. Still using the same set of batteries. A quality battery bank that is properly charged it's reasonable to get 20yrs of life.

I'd just like to note that my cost/charge/discharge comment is related to the Powerwall. Other battery installations have proven records.

Arc, I understood your comment.