Being in a sunshine state, having access to solar power maybe a good idea, especially now that the technology is improved.

Starting some research into adding the panels to the casa and wondered if anyone else has gone down this route. So far I don't see the financials making sense of converting from the grid to solar since they base the net price on cost after the 30% tax incentive (ends this year) which really isn't there unless you have the income to take advantage of the tax break.

Basic cost for our home based on use is a 16kw or larger system from Tesla, $42,000 full price less discount for taxes making the net cost AFTER tax discounts $30,000 for the system, but you'll still pay the hard cost of $42K as far as cash outlay is concerned, $60K plus if you finance it..

Power walls are $7800 each and we'd need a minimum of two at $14,500 and ultimately 4 to run everything at night when you'd normally go on the grid at an additional $28,000.

Net cost after taxes per month if you finance it is about the same as our average power bill, so from what I see, zero financial advantage, even if you refi the house and roll it in you have a cost equal to your power bill.

So other than confirming to your birkenstock wearing neighbors that you're green, why do it..

As I recall arc had a VERY good analysis of this the last time the topic came up, probably a year or more ago. May try a search for that, or he may be along.......


Actually may have been even longer ago than that given comment near bottom of this. Pointing even further back in time.....

2017 thread

HRK.

Do your calculations include maintenance costs, and time for upkeep, added costs to insurance, and those panels that are installed on roof structures that may need to be removed/reinstalled for any roof repairs?

And there are many other costs, some tangible, others intangible to everything.

The green footprint may offset your carbon footprint offset.

[Seinfeld voice]
Oh, wait a minute. Wait... a... minute...!!!
[/Seinfeld voice]

I would say that right not to go solar for money savings wouldn't be the greatest reason, but for having power during grid down issues would be the main benefit.

No, is my opinion. I could justify it if my requirements were minimal. Otherwise at this point in time it is still too expensive and maintenance extensive. Technology is improving but still a long ways off from being advantageous to the point of going down that rabbit hole with the access, convenience and cost of being connected.

Having said that. I do like the idea. It just does not make sense to spend that kind of money for something you already have. And it is safe and reliable.

My take anyways.

Is there any advantage to going to a smaller setup? Not necessarily replacing 100% of your usage?

Our house has a 4 panel system, I forget the rating. It was on the house when we bought & was builder installed prior to the prior owners moving in.
Found the 'invoice' in the paperwork & it claims it was in the $15k range, but we dont have any power failure backup with it, so it's just a cost mitigation platform for us.

I figure it works to an extent, we doubled our house size, and have a pool, but our electric bill is marginally higher than our old house.
But, we also are on a power plan with free nights, so we run the pool then.

Another potential cost (that isn't always factored in) is that these panels might not appeal to future buyers if you were ever to sell your home. Some people would be fine with them, some wouldn't.

It looked like a 15 year ROI for me when I looked into it. But my power company is forced to buy my overages and I am still hooked into the grid, so no powerwall needed. That makes a huge difference. No battery's to fail, the grid would be my battery bank. Of course you are not independent of the grid if it fails. I never did do it though.

As Joe noted above, I sort of recall a break even point at the 15 year mark for San Diego with a few caveats:

1. My house cannot be disconnected from SDG&E, it must stay on the grid

2. Excess power is not sold back at the current rate which SDG&E is currently selling electricity, it is sold to SDG&E at the LOWEST rate which SDG&E pays. (Not home at 4pm when electricity costs the most and your solar panels are supplying the grid? You will receive a credit for what power costs at 2am, when it is the cheapest.)

3. With the currently fluctuating rate of electricity (cost a lot more at peak usage time - 4pm to 9pm), you MUST have enough panels to supply a zero sum development/usage ratio AFTER the sunsets to ensure you don't receive a bill.

4. You will not receive a check from the power company for the excess power supplied because, by the eff'ed up laws here, you the resident owner are not a licensed energy provider. You will, however, receive a credit which will not be applied to certain charges on your montly bill (maintenance fees for the grid - which you CANNOT be disconnected from, etc)

88k? Hell no.

A local congressman bought a couple of wrecked Teslas and salvaged the storage devices, he saved a bunch doing it that way. He claims to be totally off the grid, but he lives in the middle of nowhere, I believe.

I don't know whay any power company would agree to pay retail price for electricity your plant dumps back into the system--they'll pay wholesale price (if anything at all). To expect otherwise is foolish (and they'd be foolish to do it).

flashguy

Yeah, it's not worth it yet in Florida as a whole house solution - some people have luck running some water heating through a small solar system, but otherwise I'll stay connected to the grid.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
88k? Hell no.

A local congressman bought a couple of wrecked Teslas and salvaged the storage devices, he saved a bunch doing it that way. He claims to be totally off the grid, but he lives in the middle of nowhere, I believe.

$60K actually for the full Monte after tax credits and for the biggest system plus 4 power walls which would be overkill IMHO.

A little research shows the tax credits are credits against taxes paid/owed, it's not applied to pre-tax income like most tax deductions which result in a net tax deduction per your rate.

So if your taxes were $10K after all deductions you'd get a true credit against the net $10K. So you'd get a refund or discount on the amount owed.

Your cost for the system remains the same but your NET taxes are reduced.

Figured I'd do some Talking with Duke energy of course there are zero incentives for doing this in FL or from Duke. They have a renewable energy advisory division, actually pretty nice person and gave pretty good advice, I wanted to know what the real scoop is with Duke.

We calculated out the actual average KW per month, then he estimated a size system to cover that, some months you'll be way over some maybe short. In the summer when you use more power than average, you also make more power than average due to the longer days.

Power sold is a credit on the bill, FL is a net metering state, being a R state it's not going to have the incentives from government like a D state MA which is #1 in renewables rating. Then again we don't pay massive income and property taxes like MA.. So FL state incentives don't exist and you have to grade the purchase on payback or your political/social belief system irregardless of $$.

One other thing, the state of FL requires you to carry a $1 Million dollar liability policy on your home if you have solar, so that's an additional cost if you don't have a million bucks in liability you have to add

You'll also always have a minimum grid bill for connection fees etc so every month you'll still pay around $20 to $30 for access to the grid.

Cutting out the power wall, cuts it in half, $30K, net bill per month $200 (after tax credits but actually $300 a month).

I don't see giving $30K for the system as a reasonable investment of capital since it's a zero return on a depreciating asset.

Might be better to lease a system, which is an option here in Fl...

From what I see, there isn't a reasonable ROI for solar, because by the time you've paid it off the system is 15 years old and way past it's prime technologically..

Any purchasers would have to consider replacing it at that point with a new system, it could in fact be a deterrent to sale if it's that old.

It's only other advantage would be protection against future rate increase should fuel costs rise, war, taxes etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Georgeair:
As I recall arc had a VERY good analysis of this the last time the topic came up, probably a year or more ago. May try a search for that, or he may be along.......


Actually may have been even longer ago than that given comment near bottom of this. Pointing even further back in time.....

2017 thread

Arc's original detailed thread and information pushed me to do the same and follow his lead. I have 35 panels on the house. It's cut my total kwh cost per year in half and saved me 4 figures per year since I did it and that's with the monthly lease payment on them factored in. We don't have net metering in TX so when kwh contract renewal comes up I have to work at it (every 24 months). This last renewal I was able to switch to a plan that pays me the same for the power I put on the grid as they charge me for taking power off the grid. So in effect, net metering. Prior to that they'd sell me power off the grid 4 cents per kwh higher than they paid me for mine. Man has it made a difference. This year for 2 months I had a negative electric bill. That's impressive for TX and the heat we get. I double downed on the 4 figure kwh yearly savings and switched to a cheap electric car as a daily driver (Leaf) years ago and I've had it for 5 years, and I've never spent a penny powering it. I power it off the panels. So I double downed on the savings. I have a gas car but it only gets a tank full every 4-6 weeks. My monthly $200+ gasoline bill went down to about $25. Arc's valuable information really helped me alot.

You need to have a study done on your home. I would get 2 different solar companies out. They will need to do an evaluation. Which direction your roof faces. How much roof real estate. Azimuth, a lot of calculations. Once that is done the company will give you a monthly lease rate and/or purchase price. My advice is to lease. It's zero down, and the company is responsible for maintenance and upkeep. Since you don't own them the county can't fuck you on your taxes. I provided the appraisal district with a copy of my lease so they wouldn't even try to raise my taxes. Leasing works for me. Maintenance, damage, etc, solar company takes care of that and I don't pay a dime for it. It's on them. I only own the power. It also doesn't raise my homeowners insurance. I don't own the panels and not responsible for fixing them so my homeowners insurance has stayed the same pre and post install. Winning!

The added benefit for me is the hail protection. The panels are stronger than the shingles on the house. We had a bad hail storm come through 2 years ago. I had to replace the roof/shingles, but since the panels sustained no hail damage, and the shingles under the panels were mint, I only had to replace half the roof. I can't tell you how happy I was about that.

Then the last thing is the sun protection the panels provide. Since they cover 1/2 my roof, that is half my roof that is shaded from the sun, which increases efficiency of my HVAC. Half the roof isn't getting heated up like it would without them during direct sunlight hours.

The only negative for me was the city electrical inspector. Building inspector signed off no prob but the electrical inspector was a real prick and made it difficult even though this is 100% legal. He made the solar company I lease from come back out and change some simple wiring that was just completely stupid. It cost me 30 days. Other than that, winning and more winning.

I can buy them after 7 years if I want, it's in the lease. But I'm not planning on doing that until end of lease when it will be much cheaper.
I couldn't afford to buy a 35 panel system, it would have been above my pay scale. Leasing worked extremely well. I remember the first year, I had 12 kwh bills from the previous year. Every single dime I saved that first year went into ammo stocking and I bought a shitload of ammo with that money. I didn't do it to save the Earf, I did it for 100% financial reasons. It just made sense financially. Oh the last thing, like a fixed rate mortgage, I'm largely insulated in kwh cost increases from the grid. While kwh is relatively cheap here currently, I am insulated if it swings up. Half or more of my power (depends on the time of year, right now greater than 50%) needs are flatlined instead of being on some variable rate. I'm loving every minute of it. Thanks again Arc. You saved me thousands of dollars!

I’ll provide more details this evening. I have to head back to work soon.

Long story short, my electric bill was $11 this month. The power I used from the grid was far less than what I sold back. I have a thirty five dollar credit right now.
Yeah, it’s weird, you can have a credit with APS, but still have to pay BS charges every month.

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
I don't know whay any power company would agree to pay retail price for electricity your plant dumps back into the system--they'll pay wholesale price (if anything at all). To expect otherwise is foolish (and they'd be foolish to do it).

flashguy

Should’ve read how I wrote my last.

The company credits the customer at the lowest wholesale rate which they purchase the power, not the rate which they are paying at the time a private residence is supplying the excess power.

I sent Arc a message, perhaps he'll chime in with a link to the original thread...

Leasing makes sense to me, I think I'll get some companies out to give estimates, can't hurt, we have plenty of sq foot up top, although facing south we don't have lots of direct south exposure so it's going to have to be East and west,

Be interesting to see what they say, I have a couple of neighbors who've done it, will check with them on their experience.

Seems to me the best way is to buy a new home with a new system built in at that time and fund it over the life of the house, or lease so you can always dump it, and never worry about upgrades...

I was surprised to learn (after talking to several neighbors who have it) that if you have solar panels, you must still be connected to the grid. If there is a power failure, you don't have power either. The panels do nothing for you during a power failure.

Solar is decades away from being a good idea. ESPECIALLY if you live somewhere that actually has winter.