quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
HRK.

Do your calculations include maintenance costs, and time for upkeep, added costs to insurance, and those panels that are installed on roof structures that may need to be removed/reinstalled for any roof repairs?

And there are many other costs, some tangible, others intangible to everything.

The green footprint may offset your carbon footprint offset.

[Seinfeld voice]
Oh, wait a minute. Wait... a... minute...!!!
[/Seinfeld voice]

You forgot they degrade over time and eventually need to be replaced.

Make sure you set aside and extra couple hundred per month for savings for when you need to replace the system in 20 years (assuming they last as long as they are supposed to.

Another expense is bring your existing electrical service up to code which can in some cases mean complete replacement or upgrade. About 3/4 I looked at for SolarCity needed repairs and a third needed to be replaced.

Funny I just thought about it we no longer do work for SolarCity, I wonder if they went out of business? Interesting model, they pay upfront costs and rent the panels back to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Fed161:
I was surprised to learn (after talking to several neighbors who have it) that if you have solar panels, you must still be connected to the grid. If there is a power failure, you don't have power either. The panels do nothing for you during a power failure.

If you know a good electrician, they are ways around that.

We just got it for our house in San Diego from Sullivan Solar. Panels are Panasonic. We bought, did not lease; recommend against leasing, nobody wants to buy a house with leased panels; and when lease runs out unlike a car, you have to renew the lease or have panels removed (that's Tesla/Solar City lease).
In SD air conditioning is rarely needed, so we have a 5 KW system; cost $20,000 installed, expect %7,000 fed credit.
Sullivan's sales guy recommended against batteries as immature technology.
My understanding (different from LS1 GTO's, also in SD) based on a search result right now, is that SDGE is required to pay you RETAIL for the power they "buy" from you. There is a "True-Up" period once a year in which they pay the lowest wholesale rate, about 2 cents/KWH.
To qualify for net metering here (i.e. you pay only for the excess you use and sell surplus power to SDGE) your system must be configured to meet your own household needs; so you can't go into business selling power to SDGE.

Given all those factors, our first full month of solar we will have about an $8 electric bill, that's with a few days using AC some. That will be about $300 less than usual bill. Last year before solar we had a $700 electric bill in July.

If typical savings is $300 a month, that's $3600/year, system payback period would be a little over four years, counting the tax credit.

Again, San Diego has lots of sun (except May and June), but little need for AC. Our little 5KW system is doing just great, even without a battery. We will continue to look at the battery market. Tesla Power Wall would be I think $12,000, an LG battery from Sullivan Solar is $9,000.

We don't have an electric vehicle; if we did that would change the picture considerably.

I installed 2000 watts/24v of solar on the roof of my Motorhome. I keep it parked in my back yard.
The solar panels feed 4000amp hr @20% of Lifeline, L16, AGM batteries(6V). All feed through a Victron Multi 3000watt inverter charger and two Victron MTTP solar controllers. There is also a Kubota diesel powered 10Kw generator. I plan to have a box installed that I could divert the solar or the generator to my home for emergency use.
Other than for the RV I don't think I could justify the cost of solar for my home. The install and maintenance on my home roof (lots of heat under the solar panels could vastly shorten the life of a shingled roof) along with the climate (Chicago clouds of gloom)cutting solar output.
For the Motorhome it works for me because I can take it all with me anywhere I go.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:...

You forgot they degrade over time and eventually need to be replaced.
....

" maintenance costs, and time for upkeep..."

I hid it in there...

The "cost of ownership of a house" thing. Is "replacing" stuff, is "maintenance".

quote:

Originally posted by Fed161:
I was surprised to learn (after talking to several neighbors who have it) that if you have solar panels, you must still be connected to the grid. If there is a power failure, you don't have power either. The panels do nothing for you during a power failure.

If you do a system with a power wall (batteries) you will have power if the system goes down,it is just a bigger investment and you have to have the right company (or know how) on how to do it.

It depends. If you have grid power close by, the math is tougher. When we put the house in it was several times cheaper to put in off-grid solar with batteries and a backup propane generator than it would have been to pull PG&E lines up to the house. Not having a meter reader driving up to the house was just a bonus. Yeah there’s maintenance involved (mostly watering batteries), but there are benefits too, like being surprised later in the day to learn 6000 homes in your area were without power overnight and you didn’t have a clue about it.

quote:

Originally posted by hambony:

quote:

Originally posted by Fed161:
I was surprised to learn (after talking to several neighbors who have it) that if you have solar panels, you must still be connected to the grid. If there is a power failure, you don't have power either. The panels do nothing for you during a power failure.

If you do a system with a power wall (batteries) you will have power if the system goes down,it is just a bigger investment and you have to have the right company (or know how) on how to do it.

If I understood the explanation correctly, your batteries will be drained feeding back into the grid. They'll act like a capacitor for the power company.

quote:

Last year before solar we had a $700 electric bill in July

$700 bill in July with no - rare A/C?

That is INSANE.

We run A/C nearly full bore in June-July-August here in FL and tops I see is $425/mo.

quote:

Originally posted by hambony:
I would say that right not to go solar for money savings wouldn't be the greatest reason, but for having power during grid down issues would be the main benefit.

I have a 20kw propane whole home generator for such purposes, and its not only 100% reliable, but it only cost me about $10k all in to put it in place. And it doesn't care if its cloudy.

HRK, since you live in Central Florida too, you might want to seriously review your homeowner's insurance regarding installing solar panels on your roof. My homeowners will not cover replacement of the panels as a result of hurricanes without an additional, expensive, rider specifically covering them. Additionally, my homeowner's company rep also noted that hurricane damage to the roof beneath where the panels are installed 'may' be attributed to the installation of the panels themselves and as such not coverable under my standard homeowner's policy. You may need to add those additional costs to your spreadsheet to get a complete picture of the costs to fully implement solar.

quote:

quote:
Last year before solar we had a $700 electric bill in July

$700 bill in July with no - rare A/C?

That is INSANE.

Well that July was unusually hot and we were using AC a lot more than usual. Mind you, the rate with that electric usage was 52 cents a kWh.

It makes sense for me in SoCal. My rates go up in tiers based on usage. The rough math says I recoup my investment in 4 years, less if I have an electric car that would otherwise push my energy usage up to a higher billing tier. We get lots of sunshine and nothing falls out of the sky.


Unfortunately, I don't think we are staying in this house for another be 4 years, so I'll look into solar on the next house.

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:

quote:

quote:
Last year before solar we had a $700 electric bill in July

$700 bill in July with no - rare A/C?

That is INSANE.

Well that July was unusually hot and we were using AC a lot more than usual. Mind you, the rate with that electric usage was 52 cents a kWh.

.52 a KWH? That is crazy. I would like to get solar but I pay around .10 a KWH and running my a/c at 74 at night and 77 in the day still only yields a $200-$250 bill in the middle of summer (even in South Texas where I live). I have a small house but nevertheless I do not think solar is worth it since my electric bills are low. If I was not in an HOA and I was in the country I would consider solar with a wind turbine. At one time I was going to build a new house and add that but I doubt I ever will foley due to the property taxes on something like that.

$.52 per kWh sounds like a government manipulated rate to punish those who use more than their fair share and push people to solar.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by hambony:
I would say that right not to go solar for money savings wouldn't be the greatest reason, but for having power during grid down issues would be the main benefit.

I have a 20kw propane whole home generator for such purposes, and its not only 100% reliable, but it only cost me about $10k all in to put it in place. And it doesn't care if its cloudy.

HRK, since you live in Central Florida too, you might want to seriously review your homeowner's insurance regarding installing solar panels on your roof. My homeowners will not cover replacement of the panels as a result of hurricanes without an additional, expensive, rider specifically covering them. Additionally, my homeowner's company rep also noted that hurricane damage to the roof beneath where the panels are installed 'may' be attributed to the installation of the panels themselves and as such not coverable under my standard homeowner's policy. You may need to add those additional costs to your spreadsheet to get a complete picture of the costs to fully implement solar.

That echos what one of the reps told me that the state of fl mandates residential homeowners to have a million dollar liability policy on top of what you're saying. Makes sense
and was one of my concerns as well.

Average kw for us is 2080 a month, so to cover that we need a level 4 20kw system, which is of course 4 times the size of sjtill's 5kw, if we could get by with a 5 I'd put it in no question..

At $300 a month average it's significantly longer to achieve payback on a $42K system without batteries.

I will probably have companies come out to give me quotes just to see what they offer.

quote:

Originally posted by Fed161:
I was surprised to learn (after talking to several neighbors who have it) that if you have solar panels, you must still be connected to the grid. If there is a power failure, you don't have power either. The panels do nothing for you during a power failure.

You only need to install an inverter.

a farmer up the road put a 20kw system , two years ago.

A. his farm will be going to his three kids in 11 years.
claims to pay for it self in 17 years , barring failures.

B. he had huge help from his seller /installer
got him rebates from the feds, the state , and one other agency.

he says if the electric wind generator people would have been this outgoing , he would have gone with them .

he put geo thermal pumps in both his 5000 sq ft.shop and his 2800 sq ft. home for heating in cooling

I did some basic research on it here a couple years ago and the rough numbers I came up with was pay for itself in 16-20 years at the time (including the incentives I could find). Since I'm not planning on staying here that long I opted not to go forward.


Now, if we ever build in the country I'd take another look at solar with battery backup as well as geothermal for heating and cooling if we can swing it.

A friend of mine built a 2800 sqft house (Switzer house) that was supposed to be really energy efficient. He went the Tesla solar tile route with battery walls and all the trimmings. Tesla never did deliver the tiles; be careful.

False economy .... for now. If it can't work in Phoenix without subsidies, it can't work anywhere else.

When they did my evaluation, they took my total electric bill for the previous year and estimated what it'd be after having solar panels. We pay $85/month for the solar panel lease. Total electric bill the year before solar was $1300. We still have a small electric bill in the summer months, so we just about break even. Well, they did give us a free 55" tv as a rebate, so there's that.

The solar company's value proposition was that we'd get locked into current rates with the local power utility for 20 years. And, of course, the local power utility then started sending out letters stating that they "were fighting for us," but that so many customers had gone solar, that those folks weren't paying their fair share to maintain the grid and so they might have to raise fees (not rates) by huge percentages. Who didn't see that one coming? Anyway, I don't regret the move, but it hasn't made any difference in our finances. The $7k we spent on a new A/C made a much bigger difference than going solar did.