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Remember the case between a baker and a gay couple in Colorado? What the mass media reported was that the couple tried to buy a wedding cake from the baker in 2012 and were turned away because the baker said that same-sex marriages conflict with his religious beliefs. Here's what really happened. At the Supreme Court hearing on the case, it was noted that the baker refused to plan, design, and bake the special order cake requested by the gay couple. But that the baker told them that they could buy one off-the-rack. When prodded by Justice Kennedy about the distinction, it is reported that the gays' counsel had a deer-in-the-headlights look. And they couldn't figure out the distinction. "All the news fit to create." *************************** Knowing more by accident than on purpose. | ||
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semi-reformed sailor |
Did not know that either. Makes you go hmmmmmm, agenda much? "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process  |
You can read the transcript of oral arguments in this case at Link. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Member |
For all we know, you and me are now classified as conspiracy theorists. Welcome to the group!  *************************** Knowing more by accident than on purpose. | |||
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| semi-reformed sailor |
I'll bring the whisky "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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Coin Sniper |
I'm not sure I see this as an issue. Outside of the shock value. If they bought an off the shelf cake, it is just a generic cake. If he had to make them a specific cake, he would have to tailor to a gay couple and for a gay wedding. The difference is providing a cake, vs. providing one specifically made that would glorify gay marriage. Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys 343 - Never Forget Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive. | |||
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| Administrator |
The law prohibits you from refusing to serve people on the basis of their being a member of a protected class. The distinction Masterpiece Cakes is trying to make is that the government cannot force them to make a gay-themed wedding cake, because that would be compelled speech (i.e. the gov't is controlling/mandating your 1st amendment expression). The fact that Masterpiece Cakes was willing to sell the gay couple an off-the-shelf cake proves that they did not discriminate against the gay couple by refusing to serve them. It narrows the issue down to compelled speech (gov't forces you to say something you don't want to say) and removes the case from 14th Amendment territory (as a place of public accommodation, you cannot refuse service to someone based on their being a member of a protected class). | |||
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| Member |
That is exactly the issue, Rightwire. To comply with that special order would conflict with his religious beliefs. He did not refuse to sell them a cake. He refused to "glorify" the marriage. You see, the guy is described as a master baker--- well-known, well-established reputation. An artiste, if you will. That's a compelling legal distinction. Think of Michelangelo as a baker, and a gay couple want him to plan, design and bake a cake. Would he do it? Some would say yes, most would say no. ETA: LDD said it best. *************************** Knowing more by accident than on purpose. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
I read the transcript yesterday. I’m not sure if oral argument did anyone any good. There were mostly distinctions without differences, confused analogies, and almost no sure path through the maze. It may have been the poorest example of high court advocacy I can recall. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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Member |
Please define "service". How do they clarify this because it has a really big range of meanings. Ask a rancher, a fast food restaurant owner and a prostitute - bet you get three different answers. Well, maybe two completely different.  . “Leave the Artillerymen alone, they are an obstinate lot. . .” – Napoleon Bonaparte http://poundsstudio.com/ | |||
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| Member |
Good one. "No substitutions!" (???)  *************************** Knowing more by accident than on purpose. | |||
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| The Constable |
I can care less if one wants to be gay, lesbian, whatever. I SO long for the days when they kept it to THEMSELVES. Now it's as if they FORCE themselves on people....HOPING for some "affront" they can then take to the media or ultimately to a liability Court. I think with a lot of these activists they simply piss off the rest of us....Not really helping their cause. | |||
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| If you see me running try to keep up  |
The baker also refuses to make Halloween, adult themed cakes, things he deems offensive or anything anti American. Like any other business he has had homosexual customers before. It’s not the case the media made it out to be. | |||
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Member |
“That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson Take out the word “money” and substitute the word “cake” (or “livelihood”), and you get the same meaning. Government coercion is the problem as LDD has stated. --------------------- DJT-45/47 MAGA !!!!! "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." — Mark Twain “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” — H. L. Mencken | |||
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Member |
Exactly, take your bedroom politics back under the sheets. Why the rest of the population must conform to a small percentage of vocal deviates, escapes me. Further injustice, our .gov has to force the normalization of this 'life style'. | |||
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| Member |
Seems like a real PITA to avoid putting 2 grooms on a cake. Does anybody know what the couple actually asked for on the cake? A Perpetual Disappointment... | |||
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| Official forum SIG Pro enthusiast  |
I knew it but I'm a news junkie. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The price of liberty and even of common humanity is eternal vigilance | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
But those refusals are not tied to prohibited categories, race, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, etc. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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Nosce te ipsum |
My whole issue is the smirk the femme of the couple gives the camera in the widely-used press photo. It's the kind of look just crying out for a stiff whack with baseball bat. Raising this entire stink to say, "Look at me". The government has no business telling me who I have to accept as a customer. Last month I told one former client to "Find someone else" and hung up on her. Complete whack job wing nut with literally ZERO respect for me. Just like the couple with the lawsuit. ZERO respect for the baker. | |||
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| Member |
Took me awhile to figure out they are both husbands and both wives. Previously, I just assumed they flipped for it . | |||
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