SIGforum
Re: Colorado gay-cake case. How many did not know this? I didn't.
December 07, 2017, 03:59 PM
jehzsaRe: Colorado gay-cake case. How many did not know this? I didn't.
Remember the case between a baker and a gay couple in Colorado? What the mass media reported was that the couple tried to buy a wedding cake from the baker in 2012 and were turned away because the baker said that same-sex marriages conflict with his religious beliefs.
Here's what really happened.
At the Supreme Court hearing on the case, it was noted that the baker refused to plan, design, and bake the special order cake requested by the gay couple. But that the baker told them that they could buy one off-the-rack.
When prodded by Justice Kennedy about the distinction, it is reported that the gays' counsel had a deer-in-the-headlights look. And they couldn't figure out the distinction.
"All the news fit to create."
***************************
Knowing more by accident than on purpose.
December 07, 2017, 04:01 PM
MikeinNCDid not know that either.
Makes you go hmmmmmm, agenda much?
"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein
“You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020
“A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker December 07, 2017, 04:07 PM
JALLENYou can read the transcript of oral arguments in this case at
Link.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown December 07, 2017, 04:47 PM
jehzsaquote:
Makes you go hmmmmmm, agenda much?
For all we know, you and me are now classified as conspiracy theorists.
Welcome to the group!
***************************
Knowing more by accident than on purpose.
December 07, 2017, 04:54 PM
MikeinNCquote:
Originally posted by jehzsa:
quote:
Makes you go hmmmmmm, agenda much?
For all we know, you and me are now classified as conspiracy theorists.
Welcome to the group!
I'll bring the whisky
"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein
“You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020
“A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker December 07, 2017, 04:55 PM
RightwireI'm not sure I see this as an issue. Outside of the shock value.
If they bought an off the shelf cake, it is just a generic cake. If he had to make them a specific cake, he would have to tailor to a gay couple and for a gay wedding. The difference is providing a cake, vs. providing one specifically made that would glorify gay marriage.
Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys
343 - Never Forget
Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat
There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive. December 07, 2017, 05:08 PM
LDDquote:
Originally posted by Rightwire:
I'm not sure I see this as an issue. Outside of the shock value.
If they bought an off the shelf cake, it is just a generic cake. If he had to make them a specific cake, he would have to tailor to a gay couple and for a gay wedding. The difference is providing a cake, vs. providing one specifically made that would glorify gay marriage.
The law prohibits you from refusing to serve people on the basis of their being a member of a protected class.
The distinction Masterpiece Cakes is trying to make is that the government cannot force them to make a gay-themed wedding cake, because that would be compelled speech (i.e. the gov't is controlling/mandating your 1st amendment expression).
The fact that Masterpiece Cakes was willing to sell the gay couple an off-the-shelf cake proves that they did not discriminate against the gay couple by refusing to serve them.
It narrows the issue down to compelled speech (gov't forces you to say something you don't want to say) and removes the case from 14th Amendment territory (as a place of public accommodation, you cannot refuse service to someone based on their being a member of a protected class).
December 07, 2017, 05:10 PM
jehzsaquote:
The difference is providing a cake, vs. providing one specifically made that would glorify gay marriage.
That is exactly the issue, Rightwire.
To comply with that special order would conflict with his religious beliefs. He did not refuse to sell them a cake. He refused to "glorify" the marriage. You see, the guy is described as a master baker--- well-known, well-established reputation. An artiste, if you will.
That's a compelling legal distinction.
Think of Michelangelo as a baker, and a gay couple want him to plan, design and bake a cake. Would he do it? Some would say yes, most would say no.
ETA: LDD said it best.
***************************
Knowing more by accident than on purpose.
December 07, 2017, 05:14 PM
JALLENquote:
Originally posted by LDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Rightwire:
I'm not sure I see this as an issue. Outside of the shock value.
If they bought an off the shelf cake, it is just a generic cake. If he had to make them a specific cake, he would have to tailor to a gay couple and for a gay wedding. The difference is providing a cake, vs. providing one specifically made that would glorify gay marriage.
The law prohibits you from refusing to serve people on the basis of their being a member of a protected class.
The distinction Masterpiece Cakes is trying to make is that the government cannot force them to make a gay-themed wedding cake, because that would be compelled speech (i.e. the gov't is controlling/mandating your 1st amendment expression).
The fact that Masterpiece Cakes was willing to sell the gay couple an off-the-shelf cake proves that they did not discriminate against the gay couple by refusing to serve them.
It narrows the issue down to compelled speech (gov't forces you to say something you don't want to say) and removes the case from 14th Amendment territory (as a place of public accommodation, you cannot refuse service to someone based on their being a member of a protected class).
I read the transcript yesterday. I’m not sure if oral argument did anyone any good. There were mostly distinctions without differences, confused analogies, and almost no sure path through the maze.
It may have been the poorest example of high court advocacy I can recall.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown December 07, 2017, 05:17 PM
redleg2/9Please define "service".
How do they clarify this because it has a really big range of meanings. Ask a rancher, a fast food restaurant owner and a prostitute - bet you get three different answers.
Well, maybe two completely different.
.
December 07, 2017, 05:23 PM
jehzsaquote:
Please define "service".
Good one.
"No substitutions!" (???)
***************************
Knowing more by accident than on purpose.
December 07, 2017, 05:35 PM
FN in MTI can care less if one wants to be gay, lesbian, whatever. I SO long for the days when they kept it to THEMSELVES. Now it's as if they FORCE themselves on people....HOPING for some "affront" they can then take to the media or ultimately to a liability Court.
I think with a lot of these activists they simply piss off the rest of us....Not really helping their cause.
December 07, 2017, 05:57 PM
mrvmaxThe baker also refuses to make Halloween, adult themed cakes, things he deems offensive or anything anti American. Like any other business he has had homosexual customers before. It’s not the case the media made it out to be.
December 07, 2017, 05:57 PM
2BobTanner“That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
Take out the word “money” and substitute the word “cake” (or “livelihood”), and you get the same meaning. Government coercion is the problem as LDD has stated.
---------------------
LGBFJB
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." — Mark Twain
“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” — H. L. Mencken
December 07, 2017, 05:59 PM
TRshootemExactly, take your bedroom politics back under the sheets. Why the rest of the population must conform to a small percentage of vocal deviates, escapes me. Further injustice, our .gov has to force the normalization of this 'life style'.
December 07, 2017, 06:19 PM
wolfe 21Seems like a real PITA to avoid putting 2 grooms on a cake. Does anybody know what the couple actually asked for on the cake?
A Perpetual Disappointment...
December 07, 2017, 06:23 PM
stickman428I knew it but I'm a news junkie.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The price of liberty and even of common humanity is eternal vigilance
December 07, 2017, 06:29 PM
JALLENquote:
Originally posted by mrvmax:
The baker also refuses to make Halloween, adult themed cakes, things he deems offensive or anything anti American. Like any other business he has had homosexual customers before. It’s not the case the media made it out to be.
But those refusals are not tied to prohibited categories, race, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, etc.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown December 07, 2017, 06:51 PM
WoodmanMy whole issue is the smirk the femme of the couple gives the camera in the widely-used press photo. It's the kind of look just crying out for a stiff whack with baseball bat. Raising this entire stink to say, "Look at me".
The government has no business telling me who I have to accept as a customer. Last month I told one former client to "Find someone else" and hung up on her. Complete whack job wing nut with literally ZERO respect for me. Just like the couple with the lawsuit. ZERO respect for the baker.
December 07, 2017, 07:05 PM
NK402Took me awhile to figure out they are both husbands and both wives. Previously, I just assumed they flipped for it .