I know I've wanted to ask this here before, but I can't remember whether I did or not. So here goes.

In my previous job, I was often the one to haul tail to the building to meet the police when the building alarm had been triggered. All but one of my interactions with the responding officers were good -- I have little to complain about in that regard.

Twice now, at my new job, I've been the guy who has gone to meet the police. The first time, communications with the City were great -- they called me, I told them I'd be there in 20 minutes and what I was driving. Officers there that evening were great -- I met them outside, we chatted, and then the building-checking commenced. (It was almost a given that it was a false alarm.)

Yesterday I had to go again, and things were a bit different -- officers were already inside the building when I got there. I made sure to do announce myself when I went in, wandered the building a bit (it's about 4 acres, under roof), and continued to shout a bit to make my presence known. After a few minutes, I did finally bump into the officers. We chatted for a moment about what areas they had looked over and what remained, discussed what door triggered the alarm, and cracked a joke or two. All was well; the wind had evidently rattled a poorly-latched door well enough to trigger its sensor. No sweat.

Thinking about the event on the way home, I realized that in multiple visits for such events, officers have never asked who I was nor for any ID. In the pessimistic view, I could be the miscreant who broke in, right?

Maybe I just look like I did actually belong there? I just don't give off "fella who broke in" vibes?

I'm not complaining about our PD, mind you, but I'm way curious. If you're the officer checking out a building and you approach someone (or someone approaches you) inside the building in the process, wouldn't you want to know who that someone actually is?

- - - -

For what it's worth: the not-as-good interaction came when the officer who was supposed to meet me was actually on his way out of the parking lot when I arrived. He did stop and we talked very briefly. He said someone had come out the door and talked with him and all was well. I asked who it was... "Idunno. Said he worked there." And then he sped off. I can't say I was impressed with that particular interaction. That's been a good while back -- water under the bridge, and all.

The short answer is "yes", we should be ID'ing anyone we come in contact with during a building search or an alarm call. A huge majority of them are supposed to be there (employee, family member, friend, etc...) Of course the usual suspects do give off a vibe and we "know" if they're supposed to be there or not just by the body language. Still, it's certainly not best practice to come into contact with someone and then not ID them. Documenting is like 90% of the job. Any cop worth his salt knows when you don't do the basics, it'll bite you in the ass.

"In God We Trust. Everyone else we run through NCIC"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Turbo216,

My thinking would be that only a keyholder would enter a building already full of cops and with multiple marked cars parked outside. And dispatch would have given me the name and vehicle description of the keyholder.
To quote Sean Connery:
"Who would claim to be that, who was not"?

Sometimes we ID the key holder. Sometimes not.

False alarms are a real problem.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Sometimes we ID the key holder. Sometimes not.

False alarms are a real problem.

I agree with this. Even encountering the guy inside as the OP describes, I could see circumstances where we would not.

I am not a cop, I just sent them to those alarms a lot.

Pretty sure the guys I sent would probably not respond well to someone coming while they are clearing the bldg.

If you know they are inside, I’d recommend you wait til they come back out.


Our guys generally would not even enter unless there was obvious entry (forced door, open window) or multiple zones tripping and audio/video monitoring showing someone inside.

Coming inside on your own when officers are inside is a TERRIBLE idea!

If there is an open door (window or any entry point) especially forced entry I am going in long before the key holder arrives.

If it is a commercial building situation we’re going in with a dog, an even greater reason why it is a terrible, terrible, terrible, idea for you to enter the building.

The way it works here is we get the alarm and we are dispatched, our dispatch contacts the alarm company, and the alarm company then attempts to contact a key holder. The alarm company calls our dispatch back to give an update about the key holder.
Our dispatch never talks to the key holder. Just the alarm company.

If I had to guess they probably actually only get a hold of a key holder maybe 50% of the time.

It’s a little different now with folks being able to get instant alarm alerts on their phones through an app or whatever.

Many times we are on scene before the alarm company ever gets a hold of a key holder. If there is an open door or clear entry we’re not waiting for a key holder.
99% of the time if we check the building and it is secure the alarm company will update the key holder and they won’t even come out.

ID the folks we find or claim to be the key holder just depends on the situation.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
we’re going in with a dog, an even greater reason why it is a terrible, terrible, terrible, idea for you to enter the building.

Yikes. I never even considered the fellas may have had a dog inside.

I have responded to hundreds of alarms over my career but I cannot remember if I asked for visual ID.

Usually dispatch gives me the name of the business owner, key holder, home owner, etc.. and then I ask the person their name upon arrival.

I probably should have asked for their ID.

I usually will wait for the key holder unless my spidey senses are off and I enter. Usually the key holder will contact dispatch who will then contact me.
(Which is embarrassing or oh crap when I forget to turn my radio down and it blasts like a klaxon in the empty space.)

I think I only had a K-9 one time.
I really never thought about using a dog.
(But the agencies where I worked, a lone officer covered a lot of miles/acres by themselves).

We've had a few break-in's, given our office location, and I've been the first here on a couple.
Small office, 40-ish person capacity, just TVs stolen.
1 or 2 HPD officers on site, no ID requested & they were in the lobby when I pulled up.

Alarms area pain in the ass. They're a constant reminder that I'm basically just an armed secretary for the insurance companies, not a crime-fighter.

At least 95% of them are false trips, and that's probably being generous. Of the tiny fraction that are legitimate, in the vast majority the burglar is long gone by the time the alarm company contacts dispatch, dispatch relays to us, and we make the scene. We've reviewed the security footage timestamps...in most cases an experienced crew is out of the building before our county 911 center even gets the call. It's effectively security theater and paperwork generation. Our best chance at catching somebody is trying to nab the vehicle leaving the scene, but that's like a needle in a haystack most of the time.

Nevertheless, we have to treat every one like it could be legit. At night or off-hours I typically will respond and check the exterior. If I find any unsecured entry points or signs of forced entry, I'm calling for more units and we're going in. We're not waiting on a keyholder. Anybody we find inside is getting IDed and will need to explain their presence. On day shift, it's typically just an employee opening up, so it's a pretty relaxed interaction, but I still ID them to get their info for the call. That way if there's an issue later, we know who I talked to.

As to the keyholder responding, Dispatch should be getting their name and vehicle description...AND TELLING THEM TO REMAIN IN TH VEHICLE UNTIL APPROACHED BY OFFICERS. Typically dispatch gets stuff right about 50% of the time, so if it matches I won't typically ID the keyholder. If something doesn't match, or they walk in on me while I'm inside, I'll get ID and establish their connection to the business.

Like BLack92LX said, if you as the keyholder get on scene and know PD is responding or find squad cars parked outside, wait in your vehicle and let them come to you. If dispatch did their job right, they should be expecting you, and you have no idea what's going on inside that building. They could be in the middle of a fight with a suspect, there could be a loose K9 clearing rooms who doesn't know the difference between you and a bad guy/chew toy, or some trigger-happy rookie scared of his own shadow that you really don't want to spook.

Thanks for all the additional insights. It would not have occurred to have stayed out of my own property, even having had a K9 and knowing how that can go. It makes a lot of sense though. If nothing else, one ought to know how their local responders operate and what those responders expect before an incident happens.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
If nothing else, one ought to know how their local responders operate and what those responders expect before an incident happens.

Exactly.

I'm thinking I need to have a serious talk with our facilities guy, our operations guy, and possibly a rep from the PD, and establish a solid procedure for this sort of thing.

When I had the alarm system put in my clinic I quickly realized that false alarms were a problem, sugar gliders can set off a motion sensor that is set not to pickup a large dog if they land on it. So I told the alarm company to call me first. I would go check things out and call the so if needed.

The only interaction I had since then was when a door sensor and motion detector went off. I told them to call the sheriff and I would meet them up there. The deputy showed up and I introduced myself waiting outside. I had my 229 on my hip and asked him how he wanted to do this. He said open the door and stay behind me, just don't accidentally shoot me if something happens.

No, he didn't ask for id I think he was a little bit happy to have some form of back up if something went down. But, alas it was another false alarm. He did an excellent job of clearing the clinic though.

Tommy

ETA we do work on the PD, SO, and DA k9 so I have a pretty good relationship with them.

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:
I'm thinking I need to have a serious talk with our facilities guy, our operations guy, and possibly a rep from the PD, and establish a solid procedure for this sort of thing.

That's a good plan. If they're out there a lot it would be good for them to get to know you, and your local PD will probably appreciate you being proactive and reaching out.

There used to be a company called Sonitrol. Their alarms would open a mike when set off. They could listen in to see if it was an actual burglary or not. I caught a few burglars with that system. As far as false alarms go, my department began to charge the alarm owner for excessive false alarms. $100 a pop. That put an end to many of our daily false alarm runs. Our school system was the worst offender.

We installed an alarm system in our vacation mountain home near Asheville, NC.

One time my wife went up there while I was out of town and didn’t tell me. She got into the house and was drinking a beverage on the couch when she saw something out of the corner of her eye. She turned to look and saw a SWAT officer with weapon drawn looking at her…Scared her shitless. Needless to say she apologized profusely. The guy gave her a break and that was the end of it.

About a year later we get a phone call from the local PD that they got a notice. I went on my app and saw all the doors were still locked and no motion had been detected by the sensors. I told him I appreciated the call but that it was probably a false alarm. We were going up there a few hours later anyways and as I suspected it was a false alarm. I changed the parameters so it’s not as sensitive…

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:
it's about 4 acres, under roof

wow!

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:
it's about 4 acres, under roof

wow!

I somehow missed that little blurb.

100% there would have been a dog inside if that was here!

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Coming inside on your own when officers are inside is a TERRIBLE idea!

If there is an open door (window or any entry point) especially forced entry I am going in long before the key holder arrives.

If it is a commercial building situation we’re going in with a dog, an even greater reason why it is a terrible, terrible, terrible, idea for you to enter the building.

The way it works here is we get the alarm and we are dispatched, our dispatch contacts the alarm company, and the alarm company then attempts to contact a key holder. The alarm company calls our dispatch back to give an update about the key holder.
Our dispatch never talks to the key holder. Just the alarm company.

If I had to guess they probably actually only get a hold of a key holder maybe 50% of the time.

It’s a little different now with folks being able to get instant alarm alerts on their phones through an app or whatever.

Many times we are on scene before the alarm company ever gets a hold of a key holder. If there is an open door or clear entry we’re not waiting for a key holder.
99% of the time if we check the building and it is secure the alarm company will update the key holder and they won’t even come out.

ID the folks we find or claim to be the key holder just depends on the situation.

this...just stay in your car, advise dispatch of where/who and what you are doing and let them coord with the responding officers. DO NOT enter into a structure that is currently being cleared, it is a good way to get shot.